First Cause

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No! This not the question I have been asking. Perhaps I am not stating it clearly for certainly no one has answered it. My question is:

Why is the belief in a First Cause or whatever you want to call it any more stupid, crazy, dumb than the belief that the Universe sprang suddenly out of nothing and further more, a Universe capable of sustaining life as we know it?

In the many threads we have had that touch on religion in some fashion when ever someone states a belief in a Divine Power they get told that is stupid, dumb etc. It is true that the existence of a Divinity cannot be proved by scientific means but that is not the purpose of science.

If you are atheistic or agnostic that is fine with me. When I was about twenty(20) I tried being an atheist; it lasted about five (5) minutes. It just wasn't for me but I do understand why some people are atheists.

I simply do not understand the need to insult people who do believe in a divinity of some sort. I can understand not wanting to have some religious creed shoved at you. I don't like it myself. My religious beliefs are my own, my choice and I don't like it when someone lambastes me with "you have to believe this or else". However I can usually ignore it, walk away from it or simply say that I am not interested.

PS: Regarding the OXYMORON thing-that was a bit tongue in cheek as I found it purely by accident and thought it was funny. But then not too many people understand my sense of humor. Sorry I didn't mean to get everyone

Edit: After going back and re-reading this thread I still don't think I am clear about my question. How to phrase it? Let me try this:

I am not asking you to explain why you believe what you believe (although I find the answers interesting) and I am not asking for an explanation of why I am wrong. What I am asking is why fall to using insulting terms?

[ March 08, 2007, 16:33: Message edited by: Nakia ]

 

Well, that certainly sheds a new light on your question, but honestly, I don't see how one should have deduced that you feel offended and insulted when your original statement was

I scanned the whole thread but failed to notice anyone using insulting terms, but maybe that's just me.

(To be honest, denouncing a full-fledged well working scientific theory as a "bunch of chaotic energy [that] was running around and finally got its self together to form the universe" is likely to be more insulting than anything that has been offered here concerning your views. But never mind.)

But even in case someone actually called a point of view "stupid, crazy, dumb", wouldn't it be necessary to investigate the reasons he brought forth to justify this assessment? In essence, you don't want an explanation, you just want people to restrain from calling ideas stupid that you hold dear. It seems to me that it follows from this stance that stupidity is a purely subjective quality - and that no thing on earth can ever be justly called "stupid", "crazy" or "dumb". Is that true?

Can you coherently explain what stupidity really is, or is it just a nonsensical term devoid of meaning?

This is nothing personal, Nakia. I just think that this way of thinking is neither consistent nor helpful - especially when entering a debate that screams "BIAS" in the very title.

 

There are general statements and there are statements addressed directly to the individual. And yes insulting terms have been used in this thread. If you read my posts you will find that I stated that the terms should not be directed to any person's belief, not just mine. Giving one's reasons for disagreeing with me is what this is all about and that has been done. I don't question that.

Actually Late-Night Thinker started this thread because of a question he asked me in another thread and I tried to answer him here.

Which theory of the Universe are you referring to, Darkthrone, when you mention

The "Big Bang" theory? It is still a theory and there are other theories out there. Nor does my point of view negate any of these. All it does is say that there was something which caused the necessary matter to come into being.

What ever any one's opinion of my point of view my insistence is that it deserves respect just as I have given respect to various opinions expressed in this thread. I think some very interesting points have been raised.

Nor do I wish to get into a personal argument that belongs to PM as our Mods will tell us.

 

while I (of couse) cant answer how the univers started, if it even had a start in any normal sence, the reason I find religius explanations quite silly, is that most if not all, are just pulled out of thin air, by people that lifed thousand of years ago. in the jewish religion and does that sprang from it (christianity and islam) its just some random guy who is chosen to hear the voice of god and get told how everything started. for some reason it was okay several thousand years ago to hear voices in the head or if your Moses get the laws from a burning bush...seriusly a burning bush?!.

today we give these people havey medication and in many cases lock them in asylums, but back then, whatever they said apperently came from god/gods and made the world make sence.
Sorry but i dont trust people who takees orders from bushes (be that real ones or american presidents ).

on a side note, a danish profesor at the university of Aarhus, has just proven that religion or rather beliefe, just like sex, eating, and the more unatural smoking and drinking alchohol, releases dopamin, which might explain why there even today is so many religius people.

 

Hokay, I can accept the above but I'm not putting forward a creation story taken from some book written thousands of years ago. Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity or what ever.

I am stating a personal belief arrived at because I do not think that something comes from nothing. I find the idea of an infinite universe of interest. I haven't received any Divine Revelation. To me it makes sense that something has always existed and I really don't care what it is called. I am quite comfortable and happy and, according to my ex-therapist, quite sane believing that there was/is a First Cause/Creator.

Religion is a whole other topic which we have .

 

Well, if the person in question then walked through the assylum walls, parted the waters of the moat with a wave of his hand, or otherwise performed acts that would have to be labeled as either 'miraculous' or 'scientifically unexplaned', he might be given a little more credibility. While I'm not saying I can prove Moses did such things, I am saying you can't prove he didn't, so the claims that he did should be considered in the equation.

Anyway, I'm with Nakia on this one. From a scientific perspective, both are about equally unprovable and speculative. One may have a lot of fancy terms and confusing math behind it, but that doesn't end up coming to any more evidence or support than miracles lend to the other. On top of it all, neither idea is flat out stupid. The only thing that is flat out stupid is clinging to such an idea without even considering the possibility that it may be wrong.

 

Or called a witch/magician and burned on a fire?

Anyways, you're not insane Nakia. I'm not Christain nor muslim or anything else. I'm not even bapthised; yet I believe in God and I do so not because of some ancient writing but because I want to believe in God - because I choose to, because it gives me comfort, because I like the idea of there being a God (though logically it doesn't makes sense to me, I embrace the thought and the way of living[to some extend].

Anyways, I'm with Bahir here.. I've been reading this topic since page one, and he's about the only one who's made sense (to me). At the end of the day, all this doesn't matter one bit as I don't wanna spend an eternity roaming about in heaven, attending my garden or whatever happens in heaven... matter of fact, I don't wanna live forever... Actually one could argue that the purpose of life is to make the most out of what little life you've got.

Okay, I'm way off-topic

 

I don't want to live forever HERE. Here is a painful, uncomfortable, and very limited place. Heaven, on the other hand, promises to be perfect and unending. Don't think of sitting on a cloud tending a garden, think about being able to explore every detail of the entire universe, and possibly make some of your own.

 

But I'd be more than happy sitting on a cloud tending a garden! I'd get extremely frustrated being able to explore every detail of the universe but having no way of interacting with it (Or at least not in any way that can be seen to make a difference, otherwise we wouldn't be in the mess we are today.)

 

The garden comment was just an stereotype example, nothing specific... The case is I don't wanna live for ever. period. I think death is a privilege you earn through growing old. I would very much prefer to die and stay dead . AS you say yourself this world is painful, uncomfortable and very limited, but it's also, imho, wonderful, beautiful and exciting... I've got enough in it, and have no urge to discover all the secrets of the universe, I just want to live a humble normal life, having as much fun as possible and then die (hopefully very old and healthy).
I guess the thought of eternity scares me because I only know about this life, so I cannot even fathom what a heaven would be like, but I can imagine I would be very tired by the point I reached it, how tired would I then not be thousand upon thousand of years from now?