France on Strike

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Same as in the U.S. We have grades 1-12, and after that you can apply to college.

Again, same as the U.S. There are painfully few jobs available to you if all you have is a high school diploma. If you don't go to college, and you don't learn a trade, you're really going to be short on job opportunities.

And you wouldn't get a job as a bookkeeper or company manager in the U.S. as a political science major either.

Definitely. I'm not saying that the U.S. school system is the best in the world (in truth we are far from it), but to compare a high school graduate in some European countries to a university graduate in the U.S. is certainly inaccurate.

 

School: The systems are so different, a comparison is nearly impossible. It really is, too many things are too different.

Like, there is nothing in the English-speaking countries that compares to a lyceanum/gymnasium and I think nearly all continental Europeans members on this board and Tal himself went through one of them. Nomen est omen, Fabius Maximus surely did. So did Iago.

Then again, I think my Matur is much more then French baccalauréat or a German Abitur.

And the English we speak is merely our high-school English.

And I no of nothing that compares to an apprenticeship. Well, most US colleges are what's here an apprenticeship. Not in what actually happens, but according to level and importance.

There are many that make an apprenticeship, get a "bachelor" with it, study at a higher apprentiship school and than go on to study at the ETH or the HSG. And voilà, the acedemic that counts, not like those useless university graduated jurists, yeah.

And one of the French problems is, that people flee into longer during schools instead of getting a decent ecucation in an apprenticeship. This is of course because of the bleak outlook of the jobmarket. And the jobmarket is so bleak..,

No, no, no. That's not what the law is about or the strikes. The law and the strikes are more incedantally related. It's more complicated than this small little law. If you want to know more about the backround and have a better understanding of the issues, you need to find a source in English ideally from France.

[ March 30, 2006, 23:04: Message edited by: Iago ]

 

Sorry if I made mistakes. This is what I was referring to:

With 'graduate' I meant solely the bachelor, not the master. The latter, I think, is roughly comparable to the german 'diplom', Bruno.

Or was, since the diplom will be abolished in a few years. The european governments agreed upon the dreaded 'Bologna Process' for implementing a system of bachelor/master. And the german governments botched it.


I did not want to imply that in Europe eduaction is better than in the US.

My point was that graduates in the US are more flexible than in France or Germany, and the work market reflects this.

 

The US job market has had similar problems over the last 10 years or so.

Every parent wants their child to go to college to get a "real" job while jobs that don't require a degree go unfilled. There are plenty of good-paying jobs for auto mechanics, furnace repairmen, truck drivers, etc. On the other hand, people with a B.A. in Underwater Basket Weaving or Classical Literature are a dime a dozen and many are unemployed or underemployed (working at Starbucks for $7/hour). Talk about ironic.

Add outsourcing into this mix, and the US job market looks to be facing some serious problems in coming years.

There was an effort in the state of Florida recently where the state was going to pay more state funding to state universities that produced more science majors and fewer liberal arts majors. The plan was ultimately shot down due to concerns that it was "social engineering." China doesn't need to worry about such concerns, and so is cranking out engineers at an incredible pace. Thus, massive numbers of Americans with a degree in engineering and no job.

 

As far as professional jobs go, no, there isn't a position that is actually called "apprentice". However, there are many divisions within most private companies, and some are certainly considered "entry level" which can be the equivalent of an apprenticeship. Take where I work as an example. The typical employee is some type of analyst. We have chemical analysts, logistic analysts, acquisition analysts, etc. etc. etc. But the division does not stop there. Within these analyst positions, there are divisions of analyst I, analyst II, and analyst III. The analyst I positions are entry level positions, and they have far less responsibilities than the other two, and are considered appropriate for college graduates. So they serve the same purpose as an apprenticeship. Analyst II and III have more responsibilities, and also higher pay. With my company, I started out as an analsyt I, but have since been promoted to analyst II. You would never place a recent college grad in an analyst II or III position, and likewise if I ever went to another similar company, I wouldn't have to start off at the bottom again as an analyst I.

If you move away from professional careers and into trade industries, the "apprenticeship" is still alive and well. Most trades require people to work for either one or two years as an apprentice before being certified to work on their own. I'll use an electrician as an example, as I have a friend who is an electrician. When my friend graduated from high school about 15 years ago, he attended a one year trade school for electricians. Upon finishing his schooling, he couldn't immediately open his own business as a licensed electrician. He had to work for at least two additional years as an apprentice before he was fully certified as an electrician. He still works for a company today, and there are times when he has an apprentice working under him.

 

As far as I know, this French law applies to people who are still in their apprenticeship.

 

Yeah, but the name alone doesn't translate the lentgh, quality and importance. The concept is still different. Because if the concept would be the same in the US, you would have done an apprenticeship, because for higher apprenticeships one needs higher qualified people. Companies usually look for the best and the brightest.


One of my classemates in primary and in secondary school went and made a 4 year apprenticeship as "Physic Laborant", that includes weekly 2-days of school. Then he made on year of "professional bachelor" and than he went on to become a dipl. ETH in physic.

Another guy I know, actually the smartes guy I've ever known, wants to walk in the footsteps of his father and make an commercial apprenticeship, get a bachealor in post-apprenticeship school and then get a phd in microeconomics like his father at the HSG.

Me myself and I was to dumb to get a place in a decent apprentisceship, that's why ended up at universtity. The concept, pay and cultural worth is different. I do not think that an apprenticeship has the same significance in the US. If it would, an apprenticeship would be the kingsroad to the MIT.

In different countries, things are different. Like the salary for teachers in primariy school

 

Over-protected or not, two-year time to fire anyone under 26 is discriminating.

 

@Iago - please enlighten me. In the U.S., an apprenticeship is something you serve after you are done with your schooling. It's actually called an apprenticeship in trade industries. In academics, they are called post-graduates. (with the sequence being undergraduate, graduate, post-graduate). Some businesses have entry level positions specifically designed for people fresh out of college. What you describes seems like it takes place concurrently with education. Kind of like work-study programs that some universities offer where you both take classes and work for a company in the field you are studying at the same time.

 

Apprenticeships in the UK are work-based placements people can take from the age of 16 (after GCSE's). They tend to be trade-based such as Electrician, Plumber etc. Their are particular calls for some specialisms at the moment such as thatchers and stone-masons in order to be able to maintain some of our historic buildings.

 

Well, other than the fact you can start them two years earlier in the UK, they aren't any different than the U.S.

 

Does that mean you can't leave school until 18, or that you wouldn't be accepted on an apprenticeship unless you made a certain grade of scholarship?
I don't personally see the advantage of an extra years of schooling for what is basically a practicle job (unless of course that education is of a practical nature, something sorely missing in the UK education system, but covered by the apprentiseship itself.)

 

Well, to get an apprenticeship anywhere, they normally expect you to finish high school first. However, most high schools offer vocational and technological courses. So if, for example, you wanted to become a mechanic, you can enroll in the mechanic vo-tech program, and half of the school day you spend learning about how to fix engines of cars. You still have to take classes like math and english, but you also learn things necessary for your future profession. Then, when you get out of high school, you can get an apprenticeship. However, it is expected that at the time you accept the apprenticeship you already know something about the field and have some training in the field. But they expect you got that from high school or by attending a trade school following high school. They certainly don't want to take on an apprentice if they have absolutely no prior knowledge about the profession.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer your actual question: U.S. law states that all children between the ages of 6 and 16 must attend school. So technically, you don't HAVE to be 18 to go to a trade school - 16 will do. However, most high schools do provide you some level of training, so you're generally better off completing your education and graduating from high school - which happens at age 18 for most people.

 

cough, cough, oops. It's been a while. Sorry.

No, system is just different. There is no such thing as a college or high-school like in anglo-saxon (English-speaking) countries . There is only apprenticeships or the lyceanum.

I just guess, in the US, about 40% of one age-group end up in college and the rest whatever alternative there is. Some of the rest would make an apprenticeship, I guess.

Here, 20 % of the same age-group (and it shouldn't be more than 20 %, like in France or Germany, which is a very serious development and lead as a consequence a crisis on the university-level, inclusive a stark growth of suicide rates among students, the poor huddled masses). About 75 % percent make an apprenticeship and the remaining 5 % have a problem of a darker nature.

A school system that is primarly organised and financed be private enterprise, may likely be a result of liberal tradtion.

As a result, there is some sort of hierarchy among the apprenticeships and a higher apprenticeship takes 4 years and is in direct concurrence to a classical university carrer à la learn latin at get bored with chemistry at the lyceanum and end up at university. Instead, enter a company, get money and a education of a higher-kind inclusive employment oppurtinites after finishing the apprenticeship to develop language skills in Cannes and London (yes, I do envy my cousin).

So, typical jobs that I guess need an college degree, like accountant or chemist, are here usually reached through an apprenticeship. The institutions work differently.

And after an apprenticeship, an academical career is still open. It may even be better to have started out with an apprenticeship, as speaking latin is usually associated with inefficiency and sloth.