France...yet another post!

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Yago - It is interesting to note that it mostly comes down to two things: Money (American dollars) -- and military might (how we saved the world with it). Of course this is the conservative thinking in a nutshell. The "business of America is business." And the main function of civil govenment is to provide a "strong defense." They can know the price (dollar amount), but have no understanding of what was the value to everyone by helping to rebuild Europe.

They are simple ideas, by simple minds. There is little to be gained by clouding very simple issues with more complex ideas of social justice and representative government. Or other "socialist ideas." It is the cynical view shared by, not all, and not even a majority of Americans here. But by a very vocal and powerful party of cynical conservatives.

It reminds me of what Oscar Wilde said: "a cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

 

On a continent where it is acceptable to urinate in public little else can be said.

Damn! How savage are we?

Seriously, this guy needs medical attention.

 

France was not just picked out of a bucket of governments for the United State to find offensive. They earned their condemnation through action.

When the movie Saving Private Ryan was being filmed, the French Government opposed filmmakers using actual pictures of the Beaches of Normandy or the massive graveyards that exist nearby. This was a HUGE slap in the face for Americans. We don't think France owes us a thing, but at least they should acknowledge the fact that we did help - acknowledge that fact the Britain, Canada and the United States died to save France.

The dealings of Chirac only made things worst - much worse. He statements were condencending and - from an American point of view - looked cowardly. In American culture, being called a coward is the same as being called dishonorable in others. Cowards don't have honor. Cowards don't have a right to live. It is seen as the worst of personality flaws.

These are just two examples, but the French Government has a reputation in the U.S. of being without backbone or honor.

Personally, I don't think this is the case.

As far as language goes. German is alot easier to recognize that French. Besides, Canada has huge number French speakers and we love Canada - despite what you saw in the South Park Movie

... and the war of 1812

 

Didn't the US act out of fear as well?

 

I agree that France was not picked out of the blue. Europe is an economical powerhouse yet has little political influence, Europe has lived in the shadow of America for decades, and now sees itself as a superpower, that includes finding a political will of its own which means rejecting systematic alignment on American positions. France is the best example of that, what you describe as cowardly, is actually a form of courage. Gaullist policies always aimed at the independence of France, be it from America or Russia. Therefore France developed its own nuclear weapons, refused to install American ones on their soil, expelled the headquarters of NATO, promoted independence rather than infeodation to one side at South-American countries during the cold war... When the cold war ends and America seems to be the great winner who will control everything, the first thing a Gaullist president does is conduct nuclear tests (I despise that), saying "we have the bomb, France will not be the pet dog of anyone"

The US can't stand that, then will call them names. And from what I see in Yago's post and what I see on other boards, the whole French-bashing is turning in all out Europe-bashing. France is just the symbol, most of Europe (and most of the world) want independence too.

I think it's more brave to stand up to superpowers than follow them like sheep and I think it's more brave to send troops in Ituri to prevent a genocide than to invade Iraq.

As for the Saving Private Ryan stuff, Normandy is a frigging historical site (some of it classified), would American authorities give permission to a foreign realisator to burn the white house for the sake of some film about the war of 1812? (a little exaggeration, but that's the idea)

 

Yes, and according to my interpretation of things, this reputation is shared by the whole continent (except the Island). Because the opinions and the politics of France do not differ heavely from the rest of the continent, concerning general principles.

The French have been picked out, now about Iraq, for the more or less same policy, with the majoritiy of European goverments towards the invasion of Iraq had. They didn't thaught of it as great idea. And those goverments who did approve it, did that against of the will of their people, notably Spain. So, again, why the French and not the Swiss, Belgians or Swedish ? Or the Spanish, because the majority of the Spanish didn't give a dam, when it was about stating their opinion about the whole issue.

Because French stands out and has a reputation, and truly so, for being the nation on the continent, to put it's national interest (which is mostly the same interest, which the other nations on the continent have) befor blindly following the ally on the other side of the pond. The Germans, are most of the time ready, to let put their own interests on the 4th place and do, what the Americans want for them. Even in this war, they didn't cripple the invasion of the Americans, through stop them from using Germany as big base and troop-circulation point. Another reason, why Germany was dealed with very soft from the American side. Pissing off Germany would have been like sabotaging the own war effort. Not good for the reputation of a republican.

I wouldn't see that a slap in the face. The Americans are some times very sensitive. On the other hand, not letting any filmmaker film on historical important ground isn't somehting really strange. If Hungarians would want to make a film about the American civil war, and wouldn't be allowed to film in Gettysburg, they wouldn't see that as a slap in the face, I guess.

 

The whole continent is not being lumped togather. Americans have a very favorable opinion of most nations in Europe. People across Europe are thought of as friendly and good-natured.

There really aren't any exceptions. I won't mention stereotypes - since they tend to be broad generalities.

But...

Europeans like Soccer (they call it football) which always perplexes Americans. Maybe it is due to the fact that we have Ice Hockey - which is simular but far more fast and aggressive. Soccer is not seen as a "man's sport". I know, I'm not being nice, but I'm being truthful.

Americans really have a favorable opinion of all of Europe. France, and only France, has a poor reputation. The rest of the European community is considered very honorable.

On the topic of movie Saving Private Ryan... the French Government would not let cameras take ANY pictures. There were no reenactments, no actors, and no danger to the site.

 

Just see how many professional football (soccer for you) players end their carrier because of severe injuries, and then come and tell me that it's not a "man's sport".

Also, France has been the main target for american media and politicians just for one reason. It is a permanent member of the UN security council and it has the right to veto.

 

Ice-Hockey ? Well, Ice-Hockey, hm, I guess you never heard about HC Davos or HC Lugano, our national Hockey team sucks as much as our football team, but Sweden and Finland ?

Or you could tell that about not being a man's sport to the Brazilians or Argentinians.

As I said before, there is a tendency to divide the Europeans into "good" and "bad" ones, the French take the place of the "bad" ones. There are several factors which led to this situation. One main factor is, that most Americans which have European ancestors, are of German, Scandinavian, Dutch, Swiss (more than one might think)British or Irish descent. Bashing those countries would for most people mean bashing grand-parents and grand-grand parents.

But like that post posted by Sir Belisarius, the Amerians use the French to enhance themselves on a level, they do not belong. The Americans were themselves no match for the German army, but say that the French weren't either, by implying that the Americans actually would have been a match for the German army, if they would have faced the Germans without support of their allies, which actually did the biggest part of the work. So, reducing the French army, means on the same time, reducing the British and German army, actually every European army which was involved in the war.

Again, the French get the bashing, for the same thing, what most Europeans goverment did. Germany was/is security council member too. The French veto wasn't necessary, because the Americans would have lost the vote. On the other hand, it was Sweden, who kicked the Americans out of the human-rights commission.

 

Do you have a hockey team or an ice hockey team? There is a huge difference. Hockey without the ice, is a rather dull sport.

If you put ice hockey next to soccer, soccer really cannot compete. America owes alot to Canada for this sport.

Countries in Europe are not divided into good ones and bad ones. Many are right in the middle, not in agreement with the U.S., but their opinion is respected. Germany is one such nation.

If you want to see America is putting each nation into the "good" box or "bad" box, France is the only one in the "bad" box.

 

"French-bashing is a nasty symptom of an underlying American predilection for anti-intellectualism: a society whose most popular TV show features smoky chatter between poets and novelists naturally threatens the land of football and Pabst." - Ted Rall

 

Maybe some language differencies -> Hockey here means the one on the ice. It was mandatory for me to play Ice-Hockey at school, but actually I sucked, because my blading skills weren't to good. Well, anyway, the Swiss hockey (ice) team sucks as much as the football team, so... But the Swedes and the Finns on the other hand ... So, actually a lot of European countries play soccer, seems like those are avoiding this thread.

Concerning Germany. Any decent US-politican with some foreign policy knowledge will stay away and discourage German-Bashing, because Germany is the most important European Ally the Amerians got. Pissing off the Germans would mean loosing the biggest part of inlfuence on the continent. An influence, which the UK isn't able to provide. So, the German-French cordial relationship is not only a pain in the ass for the British, it's also a pain in the ass for US-administrations. On the other hand, the relationship of Germany to the US is a pain in the ass for the French. It's both about influence on the continent. That is another reason, why the French often are presented as "force which tries to get control over Europe". Europeans which prioritize European interests, which is general French policy, is a thorn in the Flesh of US-Diplomats. Emancipation from Americans means frictions with the Americans. For the Americans it not the loss of the " nearly non-existing and mainly sucking" military power (that description is true, and I am happy, that my neighbouring countries, north and south, aren't in love with their military anymore. It's the economical weight, which added to the American one yields most impressive results. But, so my opinion, it would be wiser to use that weight for the own well-being and not for the well-being of the Americans. But that's slight of topic, because that is the general relationship between the continents, and one of the reasons, why other European countries are not as bashed in the media as France is.

By the way, when I say well-being, I mean well-being, to strive for "Superpower-status" is a waste of time, energy and money, because there's nothing to gain from it.

 

In that case, all I have to say is: Le cluck!

I think I should move the whole Soccer/Euro-Football subject to its own thread.

 

"Honorable" is a nice word, won't here many Europeans use that word anymore, just another cultural difference.

I personally am the opinion, that the thinking of a lot of Americans were shaped by their founding fathers. The seperation of the Europeans works more or less, in the same way it did in the minds of the founding fathers.

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion

He, he, but some Britsh sometimes dream with the American-Allies the impossible ... ahm ... imperial dream (Sarcasm):

The Heritage Foundation still sounds like Benjamin Franklin, and that's the place, where the American policies are made. The WASP-thinking is deeply embedded in American culture.

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 [ June 04, 2003, 08:38: Message edited by: Yago ]