Freedom of expression where are you?

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It is not worse than so-called Armenian genocide

Can't I express myself? Armenians also killed many Turkish civilians.

Yes, now you are right. I have nothing to say. Some governments made terrible things to them and claimed these terrible things were done by terrorists.

There isn't a commen bad view of women in Turkey. There are some bad cases, but you can't say that to people around me. Most of these cases are in the east and in small places like villages.

 

I don't agree. I don't think we can find an ethical way of war. For example: Iraq war. A war based on lies. If we forget the civilians that USA killed, tortured, raped etc. can we say that USA wasn't guilty for killing their soldiers? I can't say that.

Yes I also said that before. But that is another matter.

I think Christians can't accept some strange Asian people in their lands. Yes these lands weren't Turkish lands once. But as Argohir points America and Australia was also natives' lands. Also they killed and enslaved Africans too. As i said before, saying "they should look at themselves first" and finding worse examples won't clear our history but at least Christian world can stop their accusations. Every country has made some kind of genocide in the past.

@Aikanaro: I agree completely. Everyone is becoming paranoid here. Everyday some retired generals are creating conspiracy theories on TVs.

It may seem wrong to some of you but I want people to be able to deny what Germans did to Jews too. We have proof in our hands so if some stupid wants to deny it why should we stop it? Making laws for stopping people to say what they want will not be successful as it hasn't been in my country.

 

But stops you from constantly accusing only one side.

 

To me this seems like the first in a series of moves to prevent Turkey's accssion to the EU. The ends suit me fine, but the means are questionable. While I think they should not be part of the EU, a closely aligned Turkey is preferable.

Argohir, remember that the US are quite forcibly attempting to get Turkey into the EU. Enthusiasm here isnt that overwhelming, but noone seem prepared to shoulder the political cost of standing up to their interference. So it is dealt with in an underhanded fashion. It is regretable, but politics work like that. I think more of these manouverings are to come. Understand that Europe is not really intent on alienating Turkey when doing it, but has little choice in how to defend its interests. Someone's glaring from across the Atlantic ocean. That conflict will now be brought to your soil. Try to see through it.

 

It doesn't matter which stone I lift, US is under that stone . It starts to be boring

 

It seems US doesn't like EU too much.

That was certainly a wrong political maneuver. Now nationalists will start barking and France is seen as an imperialist country that wants to harm us. Also what France did will harm Orhan Pamuk and others like him because they will also be seen as "dogs of imperialists" in addition to their "traitor" label.

 

Kill me before that day

 

I thought the US and Turkey did not see 'eye-to-eye' over the war against the Iraqi's?

Back on topic, I don't think its genocide (but agree it was still a bad thing to happen), however I do not think modern Turkey should be blamed for what the Ottoman Turks did. That would be like me blaming modern day France for John de Courcy invading Ireland with his Norman soldiers!

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq :

I remember that. I was so happy after our parliament decided not to let Americans use their bases to kill civilians. It was one of the few moments I thought "I'm living in a free country, not a colony of USA".

But the price was heavy. PKK was (unofficially)supported by USA and they started to attack again after a long silence. As someone who believed Kurds were right in their fight before (I'm not a PKK supporter because they kill civilians but I know our government's mistakes against Kurds), I think they have lost their "victim" status when they allied with USA.

Armenians are doing the same mistake too, trying to get help from other countries. This won't solve the problem and will change their "victim" status to "traitor imperialist dogs".

 

There is no war going on between Turkey and Greece. That is a fact. Also there is the fact that everyday in the skies and on the borders we have the tresspassing and violations of air flight rules by Turkish army. I can't say if this is not happening by the Greeks too (allthough i doubt it since it would mean a shotdown of the aircraft).

The people to be blamed for that are the heads of the Turkish army who are trying to keep their influential positions in the current state structure i think. But anyway no war is going on.

As for the Armenian Genocide it did happen and along this some other ethnicities too were booted out of their homes and sent to the Greek territory.
Pontus people and Greeks. I won't say anything else on this since it does not add anything of value to this conversation.

But the past is the past, things can't go back and that is it.

France should have not passed that law IMHO. But on the other hand i would also like to see that Turkey is really trying to modernize not only the appearance but also the interiors. Which i don't think it will ever happen

 

my bad mithrantir, in school i was thought that the Cyprus issue was an ongoing war, but after reading wikipedia I see war was never declared, turkish and greek soldiers just fought there time after time again.

 

Both Greeks and Turkish do it.

I think it won't happen in the near future but also accepting lies won't help Turkey to modernize

 

@Mithrandir: Is there an official peace settlement between Greece and Turkey, though? Theoretically, Russia and Japan are also still at war, as (I think) there's only a ceasefire between them at the moment.

A question to Argohir, Dengo, and any other Turkish posters: do you think Ankara might soon recognize the (greek) Cypriot government?

 

@ The Shaman : I think Ankara will recognize them if one of the two happens:

1) If western countries recognize North Cyprus Turkish Republic. It doesn't seem possible.

2) Or if a future government which has a great desire to enter EU sees it as the last chance.

So, I think Ankara won't recognize the greek part in near future, but it is my opinion.

And after WW1 and Turkey's War of Independence, Turkey and Greece( and some other countries) signed Lousanne agreement. But after the events in Cyprus, there isn't a peace settlement AFAIK. Because it was not war, it was an operation.

 

@ The Shaman: I don' think that our government will recognize them.

After that pilot from Greece died I remembered something from a few years ago. A similar event has happened a few years ago (actually it happens frequently) and probably both pilots violated rules. After that event some general (probably head of Turkish Air Force but not sure) said: "Dogfight is very useful for our pilots, they are learning new skills...".

We have seen how useful it is. A pilot from Greece died and maybe more pilots from both sides will die for this meaningless stupid thing. As
Mithrantir said the people to be blamed for that are the heads of the Turkish army who are trying to keep their influential positions in the current state structure.

 

@Shaman

In 1987 a treaty of "no war" (or "no assault", I don't remember the exact terms) was signed in Davos, Switzerland. IRRC according to this treaty both countries agree that they are not going to attack each other and that they will continue the negotiations in order to find a diplomatic solution for their differences.

 

How do people in mainland Greece and Turkey get along? I mean do they put politics behind them? I know that when I was in Crete recently, the locals don't think too highly of the Turks.

 

The feelings of the vast majority are exactly as you saw them during your visit in Crete, disliking and mistrust but that's what you get when in the history books of both countries the other side is presented as bloodthirsty uncivilized barbarians.