From an Afghan point of view...

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Hey man, at least you're honest.

 

I'm interisted in seeing how many deli's and gas stations go out of buisness. I know where I live everyone says they won't buy from there anymore.

 

Yeah, that's an interesting point. I know that the Arab guy at the gas station down the street hadn't been nearly as talkative. There's an Afghan restaurant near me too. The Arab guy at the hot dog stand actually gave me a discount the day after the attacks.

I know that when Americans or Catholics or other groups that I associate myself with do something stupid -- well, I denounce it when the opportunity arises, but I don't know how well other people see that. What do you do if you're Arabic and American other than fly the flag?

 

Do not be ashamed of where you come from!

It is corrupt governments and dodgy leaders with one eye and Texan accents who are to blame for this upcoming war.

So whoever you are raise your flag high and be proud!

 

ANY American president right now would be heading toward war. They would be forced to by public sentiment. Clinton would have sent cruise missles by now, especially if he were currently getting a blow job from his intern.

 

Personally, I doubt I'd treat an Arab any different. I had several international friends in college, and I doubt my attitudes would change towards them now.

I posted in the Taliban thread about the aims of this terrorist group in particular. This is a religious extreme though; hardly the views of all Islam.

I have a question which I have done no research on. Why in the world, if all us western governments recognize the Northern Alliance of Afghanistan as the real rulers, and we vilify the Taliban for their horrific deeds, have we done so little to help? Seems to me if we had done more in the past, we might not have had this situation to deal with now. We supported the Afghans against the Russians, why not against the Taliban?

 

An eye for an eye and cut the heads off of many snakes. Thats all that needs be done. All those who believe we should just capture Bin Laden and put him on trial are not thinking. Remember people THOUSANDS are DEAD and Missing. USA needs to 'remove' a like number of 'terrorists' and their families. We have lost many. We must react. We cannot sit still. Taking Bin Laden out alone, whether by trial or assassination will not cure this pain. This evil cannot be exorcised by taking down this one man.
This is not a US Embassy attack where we are on anothers soil. This happened on our soil. They didn't attack our military, they attacked our accountants, brokers, translators, firemen, the Fedex delivery girl, guys in the mail room, janitors, policemen, EMS workers, secretaries and the list goes on. They were from all sexes, races and nationalities. They killed our husbands and wives and children. They killed their husbands,wives and children.
These people must pay for their actions. All of them. Not just Bin Laden. The US is the strongest country on the planet and the strongest any country has ever been. Sane people do not attack the biggest,baddest person on the block. People who only know War will not understand Peace. If we do nothing, that will be shown as another sign of us having no guts. These people need to be spanked. There is no positive reinforcement for killing thousands.

I do offer this one question: What would have happened if 'crazed' Catholic Americans had killed 3000+ Afghans in a terrorists act?

[This message has been edited by Slackertoast (edited October 04, 2001).]

 

I have missed quite a lot here, but I'll try to reply to everyone so:

There were really good points throughout the article, but I'll have to disagree here... First of all I don't think the US will send ground troops to Bin Laden's "hideout" since they have no idea where it is. And even if they find it, till they reach it he would have already fled to somewhere else. And about Pakistan - their goverment is pro-american. Pakistan and India are on the side of America and would let ground troops to pass through their soil.

If you ask me you are too involved already, and it hasn't caoused any good. It just leads to more hatred. Show the people? More involvment there would result in civillian casulties.

May I just remind you that America doesn't know where Bin Laden is? Even if they do find him and he doesn't flee just after what are they going to do? I just can't imagine a seal going there saying "Bin Laden, you are under arrest. You have the right to remain silent, and everything that you say will be used against you in court".

Sadly he(she?) is right. All countries in the UN will get involved, since "when one country is under attack all countries are considered attacked". I read in the news that the UN are prepared to aid America with anything necessary including troops.

An eye for an eye leads to more blindness. There are a thousand dead so what? Lets kill a thousand more and their families. We have lost many. So let them loose even more and make them suffer, right? What do you suggest to do, nuke Afganistan? If we respond to this act with such a violence what makes us different then the terrorists?
And if crazed cotholics kill 3000+ agfgans in a terrorist act there would be a world war, because the other side is also crazed. Now we must prove we are not crazed and not resort to violence where it isn't needed.

[This message has been edited by Vicsun (edited October 04, 2001).]

 

Slackertoast,

The American people in general will NOT feel better from "kicking ass" and killing thousands of innocent people. Killing the perpetrators and their terror network, sure, but the Afghan people or any other Arab/Muslim people in general have no more commited this act than you or I. Very few Americans indeed will get any kicks at all out of that.

Sure, I believe America has the right to strike back at the perpetrators, including those who support them from a position of power. ie Governments, financial backers etc. However, I do not delude myself into thinking that America can just flex muscle, show off its might and kill in revenge to make it all OK, with the rest of the world cowering in their boots and no-one will ever dare to so much as spit on American soil again.

At this point in time America must be seen by the whole world to be just in it's response. To support the region that has brought this hate and it's people. To do so would not only keep the fairly unanimous support of the countries of the world, but long term might actually turn the people of this region away from the hate of the US.

A hope anyway.

 

The US must strike soon before their support waivers. In one week this topic will be 1 month old. Time is said to heal wounds.It does. It also makes you forget. We can't wait two, three, four months or more.We have support now. It will only get lower from here.
Americans have become so good at moving on that they are now oblivious to what happened as little as a month ago. The more time that goes by the more we will care less and forget what has happened.
All Arab nations do not want to really help us now. They will display support but try to keep from giving it. Arabs who come here to live support us, I have no doubt. Those that live in their respected countries hate the US. If you think Saudi Arabia or Pakistan likes the US you are completely delusional. These relationships are purely business. Their is no love lost there.

Actually Viking, Americans do feel better after they've kicked some ass. When you return a favor you get respect. Countries do not respect the US. The US gives more money to more countries than any other. The US does not get this money back. The US gives grants not loans. If you keep giving and giving and giving and never get anything in return, what does that make you? A truly benevolent spirit right. Wrong, it makes you a big push over.
This is what I'm getting from this discussion. Thousands were killed in the US by terrorists. These terrorists are hiding out in Afghanistan. The Taliban has access to these people. The summed up solution this board has come up with is... We should send a note to the Taliban saying 'Please send us Bin Laden so that we can put him on trial. If you do this, you can get the respect of other countries and we will give you more money.'
Vicsun this is a bad statement,'There are thousands dead so what?' Flash that in front of a New Yorker and see what happens.

If there is no consequence to an action it will happen again and again and again.

[This message has been edited by Slackertoast (edited October 04, 2001).]

 

if we kill innoccent afgans what would make us any different from the terrorists?

 

Well, yes.

But we still shouldn't do it.

 

Who is to say you're going to kill civilians, if I got in the army, I'd still be a human not shooting at everyone

 

A WTC thread revived... hmm. Now that some time has passed and emotions have had time to give way to reason, I still think we have to strike against terrorism. As I mentioned before, the radicals responsible for this bombing actually believe that the US is out to get them. It's sad that people can become so blinded by what their religious leaders tell them that they refuse to listen to reason... it seems to me that we are left without a choice by this attack. Dialogue with them? Come on, it's been tried before. They have such an ingrained hatred and distrust of America that nothing we say is going to make a difference at this point. Hence it's a matter of self-preservation; I say by all means, eliminate terrorism.

However, there has been a call by some nations involved (for instance, Egypt) that the UN head the war on terrorism, not the US. In part, I agree; it's been stressed by political leaders of the West that this attack threatens all, not just America. If that is so, it is the responsibility of the international community at large to deal with terrorism, so an international entity should be in charge. That having been said, I'm not sure the UN is the best choice, given their track record (especially their recent troubles with the Conference on Racism).

 

You're right here. Only business, but still they will not stand in the way of the US if they ask permission to pass through their soil. I don't like the guy with the big gun who sais "gemme all your money" but I still obey don't I?

You truly believe that don't you? They would do that only when they have a direct interest in something happening.

You misunderstood me here. Perhaps it's my fault since English is not my first language. Anyway what I meant was what are we going to do about it?

 

i ment to say "if we bomb afganast we would be as bad as the terrorists because, for one it probably wouldnt kill the taliban off and two it would kill lots of innocent civilians"

 

Vicsun, it is absolutely true that the U.S. gives billions of dollars away (billions, not millions) to countries in which we have NO national interest.

$300 million to Albania, $148 million to Azerbaijan, $400k to Lesotho, etc., etc.

Check out www.state.gov/r/pa/bgn if you want to see how much money we give to countries around the world. I challenge you to show me how all of these serve American interests.

I suppose you can make up some lame argument that we're buying international goodwill or something. But the fact is that the U.S. donates more money to other nations than the rest of the world combined. And those, as pointed out to you before, are GRANTS. The amount of money we loan is astronomical. Bitch about interventionist foreign policy if you like (I do), but don't try to say that America is motivated solely by self-interest.

 

As always the discussions are twisted and bend because we speak without any knowledge. I love this board.

 

That's why I generally try to back up my statements with some hard evidence, or at least link to more trustworthy news sources as a reference. Kudos to Shralp for doing likewise.