GOP heckles Obama as a "Liar" before congress

Remove all ads!

Two points I'd like to make:

1. The Republicans were equally offended by the outburst. It is simply unprofessional for such a display at a national forum. I see this kind of thing on city and county levels all the time. Occasionally you'll see this type of outburst at the state level. It should be noted how quick the leaders of the Republican party were to speak out against such a poor display (and distance themselves from Wilson).

2. Why would he apologize for calling the President a liar? If he believed the President was lying at the time he certainly wouldn't have changed his mind since then. There should be no requirement for anyone to apologize for their opinions.

3. Oh, damn -- three, three points I'd like to make -- the outburst was both rude and stupid. This kind of thing will only serve as a rallying point for the Democrats. There have been a lot of Democrats that have been fence sitters on this issue, they may now be persuaded to cast their lot. The Republicans have actually led a successful campaign against this version of health care reform (which I think misses the mark) -- that is going to end soon. [Edit: I was referring to the HCR bill -- but the campaign has also missed the mark at times.]

4. Well, hell -- four, four points -- I agree with BTA on the illegal immigrant thing. While I don't necessarily feel the President was lying, there are certainly loopholes in the system which could be exploited.

5. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition....

 

I agree completely and this is indeed an area of concern. But shouldn't the appropriate rallying cry be "Close the Loophole!," as opposed to "You LIE!"?

 

1.) You didn't associate this with "the bulk", but rather with the entire GOP, when we all know that there's a sizable division between those who wan't Obama strung up by his feet and those that just want him to be responsable.
2.) I'm sure he's gotten support. You may not have noticed it, but the radicals that think Obama was born in Kenya are, well, radicals. They call and support, and they make (and buy) T-shirts.

DR, you aren't involved in a discore with anyone who thinks it's acceptable or reasonable to make Nazi comparisons! I think that may be your problem. You didn't tell Joe Wilson or Rush Limbaugh to shut up, you told people on this board to do so. And it wasn't warranted. You started it here.

Actually, according to Blackthorne, he may have been right. And that's the crux. How I grew up, 'liar' is a factual claim, not a slur. It means you aren't telling the truth (be this by saying something that isn't true or not saying something important that is, or just leading people to believe something that's not true).

So, if you catch someone in a bald-faced, known (i.e. they knew they were doing it) lie, what do you say? There's a huge difference between simply being mistaken, being misinformed, and presenting something that is entirely untrue. And, while I don't think you've ever called the radical right-wing liars yet, it seems to me you've called them much worse.

No, you misread that. Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant it may have been Ragusa or Coin that were making accusations of racism, not subject to it. In fact, it was Chandos, so I'm 0 for 3.

Actually, DR, I usually see GOP as interchangable with the Republican Party. GOP rallies aren't just GOP leadership, and some of them don't even have any of the leadership there. I'll accept that you meant the leadership, though. Still, I think you're off. The GOP (party or leadership) is going through a bit of a divide right now, and to lump them all together on anything other than policy is a mistake.

And I still feel you need to seriously edit (and/or apologize for, as you feel appropriate) your initial post. Contrary to your later claim, you never make it clear that you're only talking about one guy. You go from "The GOP did this" to "Here's GOP Rep doing this" and then back to "When will the GOP stop doing this".

 

No, no it doesn't. Just because you discovered some obscure loophole in the way the bill is written, it doesn't make Obama a "liar." That's just jacked-up for you to say that, BTA.

Because someone is wrong about a point, doesn't make him a liar. And it's hardly a "factual claim." Ask any lawyer on this board about the definition of a "fact" in a court of law. They certainly exisit but it's hardly that cut-and-dry.

And it is a slur to blurt it out in a room full of your peers. It's not only wrong but a rude and uneducated thing to do.

It's amusing that you expect DR to apply this to your conservative brothers, while you refuse to apply it yourself in your comments regarding Obama.

 

DR, there is no "you lie" rallying point. The Republican leadership is widely panning the episode. There are some fringe groups that are buying the t-shirts, but a person can go buy a "I smelt the felt" t-shirt if they want to (buying the latter shirt demonstrates the person is inconsiderate and rude, but doesn't prove they're a rapist).

The biggest problem I see with the health care reform is the Democratic leadership isn't listening when someone does bring up the "close the loopholes" banner. This entire thing has been nearly as much a sham as Hillary's health care reform. Health care professionals are required to have meaningful change to the health care industry -- not a bunch of attorneys writing down what they think sounds good (no offense to the attorneys on the boards...).

I must admit I believe you could have phrased the first post to be slightly less partisan and still gotten your point across ... but then again I could just be seeing it through red colored glasses.

 

I'm sorry, BTA, I don't agree. There is hardly ever a "legitimate" reason for an outburst like that, especially in that setting. It was a reflection of rudeness and a lack of manners -- and respect. You tell me, BTA, why do we have rules of conduct on this board? I'm not meaning to be disrespectful to you by posing that as a question, but only to make the point that even among we members there are rules with how we express ourselves towards our fellow peers. Believe it or not in the same situation, I would not even have yelled that at GWB, as much as I felt he was a liar and a cheat.

 

?? I found the exchange funny because I can imagine someone standing up, pointing , and angrily shouting (with a melodramatic look of outrage on their face): "YOU LIE!!!" to Obama, who just turned his head like he had heard a noise in the distance and was trying to place it, point back, and say very calmly, "That's not true." Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi's plastic face had to be manually rearranged into one of shock. Good stuff.

And yes, I do find it disturbing that someone would interrupt him in the middle of a Congressional Address, but what's life if you can't have a little laugh? (I think the Joker said that).

 

Yes, but the Joker may have had a decent health care plan.

 

Haha, obviously not or he would have had a better surgeon work on him in the first place

 

NOG, first of all, section 246 of the house bill, titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS," states. "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." The bill clearly states that illegals won't get coverage. While conservatives object to a lack of specific enforcement measures in the bill, it needs to be remembered that an illegal fraudulently using someone else's social security number to secure health benefits is already committing a crime. When we catch him, he'll have bigger problems to worry about than getting health care -- like prison and deportation.

 

The meme that the bill would benefit immigrants isn't new; it has been on Hannity on August 17. Well, the bill specifically says:

Also, the Senate HELP bill excludes illegals from federal funding. Under the "Making Coverage Affordable" section of the Affordable Health Choices Act [PDF] on p.94:

Probably Wilson must have over read that in his study of the bill before he accused Obama of telling an untruth with the specific intent of deception, i.e. lying. Well, I doubt it. The point is - loopholes, shmoopholes - such legal language is hard to misunderstand. That means, if an illegal immigrant applies, he would be refused coverage because of these provisions.

Means, Wilson told a bunch of when he could and should have known (and probably did know) better.

That's simply attack politics, and the current GOP SOP: Never mind the facts when publicity helps you to establish a meme that hurts the current administration in the public consciousness. In that sense BTA's and T2's reaction is interesting. Both can't quite put their finger on just how the bill would be abused by illegal immigrants, but find support for their suspicions in undisclosed 'possible loopholes'. Yes, it could be ... well, or not. No facts, just doubt. That's just the point.

The GOP wing that relishes dirty politics will love Wilson for his 'outburst' no matter what he actually said or referred to - he insulted Obama! BTA's and T2's are far too reasonable to be won over by the loony fulminations and mere obstructionism of the GOPs right wing. But if sufficient vague doubt about the bill can be generated they might oppose it anyway.

 

If you believe the speaking knows about the loophole and is intentionally covering it up (i.e. "This can't happen!" "Oh yes it can, look at X"), then you have reason to call them a liar. You may be wrong, but that's something to be looked into.

And I don't know about a court of law, but in logical debates, a factual claim is a claim abouta fact. Calling someone a liar means claiming that they knowingly presented or encouraged false information and/or beliefs. That's a factual claim.

Yes, and for that he has apologized and may be sanctioned. We agree here.

You're talking about the Death Panels? The accusation could certainly be made, and for some it may even stick, but I'll bet the majority of the people clamoring about it genuinely believed they were in there. And, to be fair, something that could be called by that name (admittedly as a gross exageration) was present.

Yes, and the first step to achieving that sort of thing is enforcement of bans. My point is, we know there's a problem, we say we won't stand for it, and then we trash every idea of actually doing anything about it. That's under-the-table acceptance.

It's like saying "I won't stand for these kids trashing my house every day!" and then not building a fence, not getting an alarm system, not changing your locks, and not getting a dog.

Ragusa, same as I said to Drew.

 

If you believe in unicorns too....

No, I'm not wrong. That's like saying we shouldn't have credit accounts because someone can scam them. Or we shouldn't have computers because someone can hack into them. Your line of reasoning is mighty thin here and you know it. What Obama was saying is that the bill is not intended for illegal immigrates. For an illegal to use it makes it a crime. Now it becomes a matter of enforcement.

They may also believe they see UFOs as well. It's called "hysteria" and they are suffering from massive amounts of it.

A fact is a fact? Well, there's no arguing with that logic....

 

America has no laws to enforce against illegal immigrants? Need more of them? One would think that deporting illegal immigrants and punishing employers giving them work would suffice. When they're not there (in the US) they can't abuse the system.

 

@ T2, NOG, and all who think I'm being unfair.

I can see this has gotten a bit out of had, so I'll say this and be done.

Please, guys, take a look around you. Turn on your TV. See Orly Taitz insisting that the commander in chief was born in Kenya. See a flock of town hall protesters waving photos of the president in a Hitler mustache. See Sarah Palin (and all who think she's awesome) fearmongering that Obama is planning “death panels” for old people (despite her gross misrepresentation of the language in question). See Georgia Rep. Paul Broun equating the president’s plans with “Nazi” policies. See Ohio Rep. Jean Schmidt, rather than telling a birther at a town hall to "get a grip," say: “I agree with you, but the courts don’t.” See Glenn Beck accusing the President of "a deep-seated hatred of white people." See Fox's Megyn Kelly insist Obama's putting together "an enemies list." See Michelle Malkin calling Obama a "racial opportunist" and "the most corrupt administration ever"...2 months into his first term. Hear Rush Limbaugh lionizing these people as heroes on a daily basis. Ditto Hannity, O'Reilly, Hewitt, and all the people conservatives all over the country trust unequivocally to bring them the truth the "liberal media" doesn't want them to see and hear.

Then, see Obama's speech to congress the other night. See the elected GOP elite - the Republicans in this country with the greatest responsibility for presenting ideas in good faith and representing American conservatives (i.e., the party's "grownups") - catcalling, and booing, and heckling, and waving hand-drawn signs, and “I’m not listening” BlackBerrying from the House Minority Whip, of all people. And yes, see one of their number interrupting Obama’s address to a joint session of Congress by shouting, “YOU LIE!”

And you want to sit here and tell me it's just "one guy," and that I'M the partisan one for suggesting it's not. WTF.

I made this topic - and phrased it the way I did - because I see Wilson's outburst as merely the culmination of months and months of intemperate, inflammatory, and – more to the point – patently false rhetoric coming from every corner of the GOP. Rhetoric that is wholly believed to be true by the majority of Republicans. Far from an isolated incident, I see Wilson's outburst as merely a pressure cooker blowing it's top. The GOP has created a caricature of Obama so scary and so exaggerated that it made an elected official who believed it to be reality lose all sense of decorum and rationality in the least appropriate way, at the least appropriate time, to the least appropriate person. I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened sooner, to be honest.

There are indeed conservatives out there who see this nonsense for what it is. Those with any influence who've dared to call it such (like Chris Buckley, son of the late William F. Buckely) are receiving hate mail, death threats and dismissed as RINO traitors as we speak. The rest stay silent for fear of being hassled. I'm sure there are plenty of cynics out there, too, who are fine with the hysterics if it means the end of Obama. These people call themselves "patriots," somehow with a straight face.

You tell me these people are kooks, and they are. But guess what, guys: the kooks are running your party now. I blame the whole of the GOP for letting that happen. I blame them still for doing nothing - nothing - to reverse that trend. In fact, they have egged it on.

As I have always said: I want people to disagree with, to question, to distrust Barack Obama. We are a Democracy, these are necessities. But if that animosity is based on rank partisan stupidity (he's a Nazi!) or gross exaggeration (Death Panels!) - rather than the things Obama is actually doing and proposing - then we, as a country, are f*cked.

You may not like Obama, you may not like his politics. But he's a smart, young, serious, policy-minded President who is trying to do the best he can. I wouldn't care if he were disliked and opposed for his actual misdeeds (in fact, I would join in). But most of the charges leveled against him should be called what I'm sure we all know they are: lies and bullsh*t. Conservatives who see that and say nothing are culpable. As are the ones who rationalize it by pointing out "kernels of truth." It's insanity, I am (obviously?!) sick of it and I think it has to stop. Sue me.

 

First, everyone knows that Obama is not crafting the legislation. While I'm sure Obama is aware of the process, he is still not the one crafting it. Second, there is not a finished bill. In fact, the whole reason for the address was because Obama wanted to state WHAT HE WANTED Congress to draft, which is not the same thing as what's already in the bill. Again, as of yet there is not a bill agreed upon. To accuse Obama of lying, when he knows full well the situation, makes him the liar. I'm sure you can see why some of us believe that Mr Wilson is the liar. He nothing more than a partisan hack.

Thusly, the accusation is not only partisan, reckless, rude and out-of-place, but is mispresenting "the truth."

The real work on these issues is still going on. See take a look here, BTA:

Feel better now?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32797636/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

 

And they are armed kooks