GOP heckles Obama as a "Liar" before congress

DR, try going back through the board threads when Bush was president -- the shoe is simply on the other foot. The nasty comments, bored looks and outright disrespect has been there on both sides for a long time now (including during Clinton years and before). I remember quite distinctly Hillary looking bored and talking with the person next to her during Bush's first SotU address after 9/11 -- it was a pathetic sight (not as low as Wilson, I'll grant you).

This is nothing new. Yet how we (both as individuals and collectively as an information source) phrase things can either turn it up a notch or tone it down. It's our choice -- you just chose to turn it up a notch on this. I think you could have done it differently and promoted an intelligent conversation instead of a small riot of words.

 

Do you think we will find any about AL Gore, or Bill, or Hillary? No, the shoe went on the other foot after Bill left office. Bush supporters just got a taste of what it was like while Rush and the GOP were doing their dog-and-pony show about the Clintons. I'm surprised that you would bring that up, since some of us are proud authors of some of those posts about Bush Jr.

But if I ever met GWB I would never be that rude to him in person. In fact, I would thank him for his service to our country. Believe it or not, he represented America in its largest sense and the office of president is bigger than one person. While I believe he was the worst president, he was still president, and I love our Constitution and my country more than I love either my personal ideology or the Democratic party. My fear is that people are starting to cling to their personal ideologies and political parties more than the welfare of the country.

That is what's really scary about some of these people.

 

It's just your average redneck, trailer-trash group showing off for pics. Someting tells me the value of those weapons is more than the value of the rest of their parents assests combined.

 

We'll just have to disagree on that, T2. It took well into the Iraq war before Bush faced anywhere near the level of animosity that has been shown to Obama, and most of this nonsense started before he even took office. Yes, there's always disrespect shown to the ruling party by the opposition. But it is a matter of degrees and fairness. The level of disrespect and vitriol shown to Bush by Democrats doesn't even come close to what I'm seeing now from the right towards Obama. And when Democrats opposed Bush's war policy, they were railing against events that were actually happening. The right is currently railing against things they believe are happening but actually aren't. Like Marxism, and Naziism, and Fascism, and euthanasia, and indoctrination, and on and on. When you have to fight through that silliness before you can even get to the basic facts of an issue, how can you expect to have an intelligent conversation in that atmosphere? It's simply not a fair fight.

You'll likely disagree with that, saying the left was "just as bad," an opinion you've argued before that I suppose you're entitled to (despite what I see as overwhelming evidence to the contrary). But that only shows me that any hope I have of reasonable Republicans like yourself being a positive example for the nutters is misplaced, since you don't seem as alarmed by the hysteria as I believe is warranted by rational, responsible people. You're free to do what you want, though, so I shouldn't expect this from anyone, anyway.

As for my tactics this time around, perhaps you're right about me, and turning up the heat undermined my intent. But please understand, I've been trying my best to have an intelligent conversation about this stuff for years. The rhetoric on your side has only gotten more shrill, more hysterical, more counterproductive (much better since martaug's been gone, but still). I'm tempted to stop trying at all, since having an intelligent conversation around here now means spending 3 pages arguing the definition of "indoctrination" and the motives of those who use it. But at least it's sometimes fun, and as Chandos keeps reminding me, that's what posting here is supposed to be about.

 

We do have some. They're poorly written/enforced. In the US, the INS is called the Revolving Door System, at least where it concerns Mexicans.

You'll need more than a bunch of gun enthusiasts going hog wild at an old quarry (what it looks like, at least) to tell me the GOP leadership are arming to the teeth.

Probably because that's not the first time that kind of video has been posted here.

As for the nature of the arguement. I have to agree with both T2 and DR to some degree. This kind of thing is hardly new. You do remember, of course, when they impeached Clinton for having an affair, don't you? Yes, it's gotten more vitrolic and more commonplace over the years, from the end of Clinton's second term, all through Bush Jr, and now for Obama. It's gradually gotten worse and worse and earlier and earlier and more and more extreme, but to try and claim it's only the GOP that does this is ridiculous. Does anyone else remember the Louisiana Governor cussing out Bush on national TV? Or how about some of the things Pelosi said about him durring addresses to the Senate? Do you remember the nonsense that was thrown at McCain durring the campaign, about Bush III? Yes, it needs to be addressed, and yes it needs to be stopped, but liberals (US usage of the term) like you guys demonizing the GOP for it is only going to make things worse. It needs a rational, calm, reasoned response, and one that recognizes the problem as a whole (bi-partisan), not trying to pin it all on one group.

 

We certainly agree that both sides do it, NOG. Where we disagree is that one side takes it to a degree that far exceeds the other, especially in terms of cynicism and ridiculousness. Myself and others have tried to make this point on these boards more times than I care to remember, however, only to be met with skepticism and woefully imbalanced examples of "see, the Dems do it, too" by conservatives here. Not unlike the examples you just provided, which seem awfully tame (to me, at least) compared to much of what we're seeing right now against Obama.

I'm beginning to accept that there's little we can do to make you see things the way we do, as we're sincerely doing our best (at least I am) to avoid "blue-colored glasses" in doing so. I am not arguing for the left, and I never have been; I am arguing for reality. I am stubborn, though, so it's not easy.

 

Methinks the video posted was a joke. I have been known to make mistakes, from time to time. (+10 points if you can get the reference).


And DR, you can't stop arguing, because then they'll think they've won, and it will only encourage them ('them' not being NOG, but people in general who buy into the 'Death Panels' crap, and so on and so forth). Kudos on your massive post by the way.

 

I don't mean about him being rude, BTA, I meant about the link I posted, which said that the Republican concerns were being worked out about the issue that is at the center of your concern. There was a Republican congressman on TV from Cali today, (although not your district) and he added more clarity. He said they were all sitting there (the Republicans) thinking that Obama was speaking of the House bill that was at issue, and he thought Obama was wrong (notice he didn't say he was lying, but that he thought he was wrong). He continued to say that as the speech went on, it became clear to him and the Repulicans around him that Obama was speaking of the Senate bill, a different bill than Wilson and the rest of them were thinking of. The Senate bill is very different in that it does not reject the verification process that the House bill does.

 

DR, I would remind you that there was a time when it seemed most of the liberals in the US believed Bush had personally orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. It ended up just being a small minority, but they were vocal enough to drown out about everyone else. There were people calling for him to be arrested for the thousands of murders and everything. While it's certainly unsettling, and has lasted a bit longer than that so far, I don't really think this whole scenario is much different.

 

Not a rhetorical request: show me the democratic politician on the national stage who says things as blatantly insane as the utterances of a Bachmann or Palin. Show the me the liberal commentator as unhinged as Limbaugh or Beck who has a following anywhere near as large as theirs.

Or, hell, show me the liberal who is both as crazy as and influential as Robertson/Falwell/et al.

 

What AMaster said. If it honestly "seemed" - to you - that at any point the majority of liberals believed that Bush orchestrated 9/11, then you either listen to WAY too much talk radio or you were smoking something very special during that period of time. I have no idea where you get this stuff. The number of 9/11 "truthers" was and always has been tiny, and the GOP has ALWAYS exaggerated their numbers and popular support. Truthers have NEVER had any form of mainstream support in the Democratic party, and no one with any power or influence in the Democratic party ever leveled such a charge at Bush. There was more than enough stuff Bush actually did worth complaining about that they didn't need to make stuff up.

Unlike now, when the giants of the GOP are the ones giving the most airtime and credence to absolute cranks (when they aren't leveling outrageous charges themselves), and it is sadly a majority of Republicans who actually takes THEM seriously. So I think you have it precisely backwards. What the GOP has been leveling at Obama the last 9 months is simply not equal in scale, authority, accuracy, vitriol or variety to what Bush suffered, I'm sorry. If you really do see the two situations as "not much different" then I really don't know what else to say or do to help you understand the reality here. It is starting to feel like a fool's errand.

 

Craig Ferguson's Monologue on Joe Wilson

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I think it was probably when Discovery did a special on the "truth" behind 9/11. CNN and NBC were running stories on the "truthers" similar to Fox's coverage of the "death panels".

Now I'll ask you for proof. What makes you say a majority of Republicans believe this stuff? I'll agree there's a very vocal leadership, but unless you can even show that 55% of the Republican Senators and Representatives believe this stuff, then even accusing the GOP as a whole of it is a stretch.

Ragusa:
I've never liked Craig Ferguson as a comedian. I honestly don't think he's that funny. His point, though, is good. Feel free to disagree. Feel free even to call the President a liar (provided you can support it). But don't interupt a joint address to Congess that way.

I'll admit the "Bush just though Congress was haunted" bit, and the "Even Joe Biden said it was embarissing" bit had me chuckling, though. Maybe I'll give him a second chance.

 

Since you watch neither CNN or NBC I'd bet you haven't even seen the shows in question. I have seen or heard of no such show on either network. I also can't seem to find any reference online of the Discovery Channel special you're referring to, which is odd, since if it aired what you say it does, there'd be a plethora of critical blog posts criticizing it on both the left and the right. Now I'll ask you to substantiate THAT, since I believe this is merely another example of something you just "heard" and uncritically believed.

With pleasure.

Not that a poll is required, NOG. Simply look around you. I say a majority of Republicans believe this stuff because they do. Whether the majority of Republican legislators believe this stuff as well hasn't been polled that I'm aware of, but that hardly matters. They say it, or at the very least tolerate it, because even if they don't believe it, they recognize that keeping the hysteria alive helps them electorally.

And again, I never said the whole of the GOP believes this stuff. I said I hold the whole of the GOP responsible for the majority of Republicans believing this stuff. No whole of either party will ever all agree on any single issue.

If I may make a request: Since myself, Drew, Chandos and others are more than willing to substantiate the claims we make, especially when questioned, how about you start doing the same when you're asked?

 

Amen to that.

 

Most Republicans I know don't respond to polls. 100% of the republicans I know and associate with think the whole "birthers" thing is a lie and a scam. There's my poll of intelligent republicans.

Stuff that in your ballot box.

 

Hmm ... uhm ... hmm ... YOU LIE??!

 

T2, you forget that much like most democrats, most republicans aren't intelligent.

Then again, most people aren't intelligent, either....