"Grocery list" (Religion)

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I just don't like when people justify global catastrophies, such as the tsunamis or hurricanes by saying: "God loved those people, and brought them to Him, in heaven." So does that mean that he doesn't love anybody else? Or did every dead person in New Orleans prove their love to Him?

And I agree with Jigga: Why would God resurrect the guy, if the man was going to heaven? Does he have a special antipathy towards that man?


And when my cousin drowned, did God push him in? Or did he control the person who may have (the details are uncertain, we don't know if his friend, who may have been drunk, pushed him in, or if he just slipped) pushed him in? I thought God didn't control free will. And if he wasn't pushed in, did God control his foot, so that he stepped on a slippery rock, all because He loved him?

 

God kills you because he loves you. God let's you live because he loves you. God makes you fart because he loves you. Something happened because God loves you. God created Hitler because he loved the Jews. God created Stalin because he loved the Russians. God created Bush because he loves America and the Middle East.

We're just plastic soldiers in a sandpit. Whatever we do doesn't matter apparently.

 

Chev - thank you for your Bible quoting skillz, one more part of Christianity that I dislike proven to actually be part of Christianity, rather than some crappy church doctrine/some individual's thoughts on what's going on.

I don't think I'll join the larger argument going on though Maybe some other time, when I get around to starting that Christianity/religion rant thread I've been thinking of creating for a long time...

 

Interesting article NOG, but if this was real, it would have made world news, like the case of the Hindu temples in England that had the tiny statues drink milk (and this was proven).

* Edit found a link to back-up that old news story from the early 90's

http://www.crystalinks.com/milkmiracle.html

This made every news channel in Ireland and the UK, so does this prove that Shiva and Ganesh exist?

 

I remember that, but it was shot down really fast. The Ganesh statues were made of bronze and such,AND a mickey mouse statue did the exact same thing. They held the milk to the mickey mouse and it "drank" the milk. They then retried it on the same Ganesh, and the milk was sapped up under its chin and moved in a VERY fine stream down its belly, eventually making an incredibly small pool of the milk at the bottom. It didn't actually drink. As I said earlier, the Mickey Mouse statue did the exact same thing, the milk sapping under it and moving in a incredibly fine stream down to the base.

Is Mickey Mouse god?!

 

This was real, it did make world news in a lot of contries, but European and American only gave it about 5 sec. air time. They don't like the whole miracle thing, especially when its from christians. As for why the guy got sent back, hmm, maybe its the hundreds of thousands of people who have been saved through his testamony.
P.S.
God created Hitler and Stalin for the same reason He created you. Hitler and Stalin chose to be Hitler and Stalin, God didn't make them be that way. Remember, people have free will, and free will has consequences.

 

Honestly, why would god want to screw around with something as insignificant as humans? I mean, really. If I was all powerful, I wouldn't waste my time on petty little earthlings and their insignificant little planet when there's trillions more out there I could be screwing with

Seriously though, you can't explain everything with "oh, god did it!" and then when someone asks why he did it, reply with the retarded "Durrr, he workses in mysterious wayses yep"

 

Considering most of the newspeople are rich, white, christians, I'd have to say that they'd love it if it were true...

So then God isn't omnipotent? If He were, wouldn't He be able to override their free will for the better of His people? Or maybe He didn't, because Hitler killed Jews, and according to Christianity, Jews are going to Hell anyways.

 

Oh, speaking of free will lets get started on the story of Adam and Eve eh? If god was so omniscient how did he not know that Eve would eat from the tree? The story of Adam and Eve is just like Pandora's Box, a sexist story that ingrains into your brain that "women are weak and evil." This may have been the idea of the time when this religion was created, but I think its absolutely ridiculous.

 

Even I have to step in here. Free will means FREE WILL, including being as evil as they want. It means no interference in the actions of others as much as He may want to. Before you get started on that, however, note that this story does not oppose free will. God does not make the grocer accept the ludicrous bargain, and does not force (or prevent) the other customer giving the grocer the money anyway. The only thing affected by His will in the story is an inanimate weight scale.

Personally, I get a bit annoyed at all the arbitrary tests He imposed in the old testament (the apple, Pandora's box, etc.), but really, we don't have to rehash those here when all Mauro was asking was if you thought the story could happen! Sheesh.

 

Alright, Fel, I see your point, and I rescind my previous comment.

But would God save the people He loves if they were being oppressed? Or would he let them suffer, because the oppressers are using their free will?

Note: I am not attacking, I am just curious.

 

Yes. As I understand it, free will is absolute. We can even blow up the whole f***ing planet if we feel like it and he shouldn't step in.

My opinion on the subject is pretty simple: God got bored and he left. He tried futzing around with us to get us to do things right, but he finally just gave up. The Second Coming, supposed to happen in 1001 AD, never happened because he'd already stopped caring by then. The two known attempts were with Jesus first (thinking that his Son might be able to convey the ideal) which failed miserably, and then again in 600 AD with Mohammed, which nearly worked but got corrupted. Somewhere between 600 and 1001, he decided it was best to leave us to our own devices.

Well, okay it isn't that simple, since even I can see some contradictory feelings in what I just wrote ("got bored, stopped caring, or gave up" vs. "what he thinks is best"), but the overall idea of what happened and the current circumstances are fairly solidly stated. He was here, now He's not (or at least not actively), and His reasons are His own business. I say we thank Him for the planet and not screwing us up too bad, and move on.

 

Saber and others: as far as I know, there isn't any totally adequate solution out there that answers your problems here.

However, you are not the first to pose such problems. Different people will respond in different ways to the difference between the way things are and way things "ought" to be. (Whatever that really means.) What you can do is explore and examine these responses yourself.

I'm sure you've heard such advice before, but it is in my opinion good advice.

 

Actually, the whole 'free will' debate is a really big one in christian communities, and I'd love to get into it here. There are two extreme camps.
:gets out really big scholar's cap of +umpteen million theology:
Camp 1.) Calvinists
Calvinists, started by John Calvin, who-knows-when-and-I-don't-care, believe that free will is an illusion. They believe that God made man, and God controls what man does. God makes man sin, then punishes him to show His justice. God makes man obey, then rewards him to show His love. I don't really understand this side at all. It basically makes God out to be a 5-year-old playing with dolls.
Camp 2.) Armenianists
Armenianists, started by someone else, somewhere else, at some point in time, believe the exact opposite. God created man, God gave man free will, and God decided not to interfere with man's free will, ever, at all, period, not directly at least. God can punish, reward, protect, etc, through the natural world, but he won't make you choose something. This one doesn't make much sense to me, either, though. The Bible pretty much says straight out several instances when God interferes with man's free will.
My position, and that of most christians, is somewhere in between these two extremes. God wants humans to exercise free will, to be their own, etc, but He won't let them mess with certain plans, screw up TOO much, etc.
Here's the thing to understand, though: Why free will at all, and why sin at all?
God made the angels to praise him. That's what they do. But they do it because they were made to. It's kind of like having a looped recording of your own voice saying "You're great, you're cool." only a little better. God made man to praise Him, but not just because we were made to. God made man to CHOOSE to praise Him, of our own FREE WILL.
So why sin? Well, praising God is what He wants us to do, therefore it is good. Anything else is basically saying "I'm better than God, I can come up with better things to do with my life than He can." This is sin. This is the defenition of sin. All other sins, in one way or another, come down to this, and that is why all sins are equal in God's eyes. But what is free will without choice? Do you really have a choice if you can choose vanilla, vanilla, or vanilla? If there is only one option, serve God, there is no choice and no free will. Since God wanted free will, and anything other than serving Him was sin, sin became the first (and only) necesary evil.
As for the whole 'God got bored and left' idea. That gets into the whole omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent thing. How can God leave if He's already everywhere? Where would He go? Why would He make man in the first place if He already knew He'd get bored with it.
:takes off cap, closes really big book:
Ok, silly time again:
Fel, you're not talking about God, you're talking about aliens , and that's just crazy . Everyone knows aliens aren't real because the Bible doesn't mention them .

 

Camp 2:
Possibly from Armenia? The only Christian country in the Middle East, and still celebrating Christmas on Jan 6th. (Or Jan 7th depending on sect)