"Hardcore" playing sensibility

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Hello everybody
Splunge, you seem to be rocking this game. Just be careful not to get overconfident.
I can proudly present you my creation: my lawful evil monk goes by the name of Anjin-san. This one's quite a misplaced citation, but I figured it would do. After a first test trial, which ended quite quickly btw, I proceded to create my hero. Here are the stats:

STR: 18
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 8
WIS: 17
CHA: 4

The hit points are very bad news: a grand total of 56... just to compare: Nalia has 58 right now. Just sad, that's my only comment
Another bad new is, early on the monk, as pointed out by Splunge, is fairly weak. Actually, forget about the fairly... see him waltzing seemingly undendingly against mephits is a gives me a feeling which I locate halfway between the frustrating and the pathetic.
I only made it out because of my Bhaalspawn abilities, specifically Horror. And since my movement rate is high, it is quite easy to hit running enemies (connecting on them however is another story). Anyway, Anjin-san majestically walked out of the dungeon having left only a pesky vampire alive. After the shock of having Imoen abducted, he proceeded to find a replacement for her. Luckily, he has been directed straight to the Copper Coronet. After which, he finished the business at the circus tent. Given his hate for mind-altering magic he terminated the illusionist gnome with the greatest pleasure. After this, he will tackle all the basically not-combat oriented quests hoping to gain some extra-power. Nalia also needs to inscribe some more protection oriented spells in her book. Anyway, it is going to be tough to continue before the weekend, so it is going to take a while before I can post something new.
Splunge: thanks a lot for your wish. I'll take in the spirit it was -hopefully - meant.

 

This should IMO be called "Ironman" instead of Hardcore. The term Ironman is often used for playing a game without using save/reload.

Is there any consensus on what difficulty level to play the game?

I'm considering playing a sorcerer solo Ironman style, now that there is such a great interest.

 

Ironman sounds good to me, although images of brutes lifting concrete blocks and pulling trucks around pop up in my mind
As far as I can say, we all are playing core rules.
You are welcome to play sorcerer, although Macready is already trying with one, so you folks might end up competing against eachother. Oh well, as long as it stays on friendly terms.
Feel free to join the party. Could you please post some more specific rules for your game (e.g. wether you go for a roleplaying or a powergaming approach, what if any cheese is allowed, and the like) ?

 

@ Earl Grey
"Hardcore" comes from Diablo 2, and I kinda like it; I guess "Ironman" could work as well, but to me (and this may just be me) it suggests minimizing deaths rather than none at all. Anyway, whatever you prefer is OK. And hopefully you decide to try this thing; the more the merrier! I agree with Kralizek - it looks like we're all playing core rules. I don't know that it matters too much whether you go with a sorcerer, but Kralizek may be right - so far, this is more of a friendly experiment, and 2 people using the same character could make it competitive, but as long as it's kept friendly, it may be OK. Any thoughts, Macready?

@ Kralizek

You took it correctly . I think I'll change it to "break a leg", which over here basically means "good luck" (go figure).

Very quick update. I had a little bit of time last night, so I started on my Kangaxx quest by going after the 2 liches holding his body parts. The Sewer lich was surprisingly easy. The Bridge lich was a different story - all I have to say is I'm glad I had lots of extra healing potions, because I must have went through 20 of them. Kralizek, your warning about not becoming overconfident is a very good one. I'm going to start Chapter 3, and I'm still planning on taking on Kangaxx at level 19 (but with a lot less cockiness).

 

@ Splunge: break a leg you too then !
My question is: who are going to side with on chapter 3 ? I guess the question is whether you fear more level draining or backstabbing.
It is going to be a very tough question for me, as I expect my monk not to be able to equip the amulet of power. I guess in the end, given the amount of HP I have, I will side with Aran.
What about you ?

And what´s up with Macready and Malovae ? Have not heard anything in a while, so I am getting worried that the worst happened. Let us know folks !
As for me, I won't have any chance to play before the weekend. I will make sure to let you know when something happens.

 

About luck
Nobleman, Foradasthar and Kralizek all were of the opinion that playing Ironman (or hardcore) was a matter of luck. I disagree!
Luck will play a part, but it will be less of a factor the better you plan for everything in advance before you start the game.
For someone who plans very little in advance luck will be a major factor, but for someone who plans out every major encounter in the game before even starting the game the impact of luck can be made minimal.
Actually, as far as I recall when playing with a normal party I don't have to reload at all and when I do it it's when I'm not satisfied with the result. Reloading is pretty much a solo thing.

About the challenge
Is this challenge to be true solo or will it include one or more NPC's for shorter or longer time?
For me it must be a solo game. This is where the challenge lies. Ironman (hardcore) with a normal party is admirable and IMHO the way PC games ought to be played. But who has the will to always do that?

Whatever you decide for your game it is important to define before the game the limits of the NPC's. Things like how many NPC's, for how long or if an NPC will be admitted only for specific purpose - like disarm trap for example.

Other things
The idea of quitting before getting killed - Diablo 2 style - is absolutely ludicrous. Surely we can all agree that doing so is an exploit of gargantuan proportions.

Creating extra characters in multiplayer is IMO not allowed. Either you use the NPC's in the game or you play multiplayer. I know this is strict, but I've never been a fan of using the multiplayer option to build a single player party in BG2.

I consider the Ironman concept in this case to be like playing a pnp campaign with a Dungeon Master. You can die, but in most settings resurrection is an option for medium to high level characters. There are however situations when resurrection is not possible and the character is really gone. There is no reload.

What if you die after having made it quite a bit into the game? Two options:
1. Start from the beginning. You really want to make it and you think you can.
2. Reload and when you write about your game here you list how many reloads you had to do and where those happened.

Splunge had thoughts about which quests to do. My view is perfectly clear: Just finish the game! Which quests you choose to do to get there is not relevant.

[ September 05, 2003, 12:02: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

@ Kralizek – for the simple reason that I want the Mace of Disruption, I’m siding with the Shadow Thieves. Plus I don’t like the evilness of the quests from Bodhi.

@ Earl Grey:
1. Re luck – I agree to a point, but it’s the randomness of the saving rolls that are the potential problem. But it’s also a matter of choosing what quests to do when, and as you say, proper planning and preparation for each battle.
2. Re challenge – We’ve already established that earlier in this thread. The challenge is this - don't die. Define up front your approach (soloing, NPC's, multi-player, etc.), and it's OK. Of course, as you suggest, there's more glory in going "true" solo.
3. Re quitting before being killed – again, we’ve established that. It’s not allowed.
4. Creating extra characters in multi-player – well, I guess you disagree with my approach, but nobody else seems to have a problem with it. You’re of course entitled to your opinion – at this point, it makes no difference to me.
5. Re death – with all due respect, I think you’re missing the point of the whole hardcore exercise. No deaths allowed. Period. If the PC dies, it's game over. (In my case, I’m extending it to both my characters.) And if an NPC dies, no resurrection; you can get another NPC, but you’re done with the old one. Your idea of reloading for high-level character deaths is, as I suggested before, the difference between Hardcore and Ironman, and I think we should make that distinction starting now.
BTW, I have absolutely no problem with the Ironman approach, but I think it should be declared at the start whether someone is playing Hardcore or Ironman. For the record, I’m doing Hardcore. When I die (very possibly quite soon), I may start a new game Ironman-style, and take a roleplaying approach.
6. Re which quests to do – I agree with you for those who are roleplaying. See the previous comments in this thread for anyone (such as myself) taking a powergaming approach.

 

I basically agree with Splunge on most points.
Speaking for myself, I am carrying -as stated in a previous post- an extra NPC as support (i.e. buffing and detrapping).
I also think that the moment I die, I will drop this game. The main reason behind it is that I want to get a real feeling of no-safety-net here. So, like in real life, once my monk dies, it's game over (he might believe in reincarnation, but that does not matter right now).
However, this is only my approach, and I do not want to impose it on anybody.
Personally I think that tackling SoA hardcoring it is quite an ambitious undertaking. I therefore believe that everyone trying it should have some freedom in defining the rules. As far as I can tell, all of us are using slightly different approaches, but it does not bother me at all, as long as rules are stated nicely before starting the game.
After which, I wish Earl Grey the best for his try at this. Iirc you are not new to this kind of challenges, and quite quick at solving them. Prove us that luck has nothing to do with it!

 

My observations regarding character death have no impact on a soloing effort. When you die there it is over.
My point was that death is not final in a AD&D setting and so the focus should be on going through the game without having to reload. Character death ought to be kept seperate from the "save & reload" routine. In either case "Save & reload" is not allowed, we are in agreement on this.

Not allowing character death in non-soloing Ironman is a good idea and I am in support of that.

Regarding quests.
The challenge is to finish the game without reloading (and any character dying for those who aren't soloing) I cannot see how the choice of quests is anyones business but the players own. Regardless of playing style. It would be just confusing the issue.

Thank You, Kralizek, for the good luck wishes. I wish everyone else trying out this challenge in one shape or another the best of luck. It will be very interesting to read the results. If you fail, please tell us where and why you failed. Such information can be at least as interesting as reading the summary of a successful game.

 

@ Earl Grey
Perhaps I misunderstood your point, so please clarify. We are apparently in agreement that, in a hardcore scenario (vs. Ironman as I’ve made the distinction), character (ie. PC) death means game over. So how do you keep death separate from “save and reload”? Or are you saying that it’s OK to resurrect NPC’s? I guess I’m still a bit fuzzy on what you are saying (sorry, it’s Friday, and it’s been a hard week ).

On quests, my only point is that, to make up for the relatively easier time I should (in theory at least) have for taking a powergaming approach, plus the fact that no self-respecting powergamer would avoid an unnecessary battle just because it is hard, I should do the difficult battles. Again, that’s just my (and Kralizek’s and Macready’s) opinion. You’re right though, this shouldn’t be forced on anyone. And for non-powergamers, it would be foolish to take on dangerous and unnecessary fights.

So, have you decided to go with a sorcerer? Please keep us up to date on your progress, and “break a leg” (if, as with Kralizek, I shouldn’t be wishing you good luck )

 

No matter what character you choose, qhat quests you choose and your style of play, it will boil down to luck. I am thinking that no one here will be able to do it on their first try, maybe even their second. I know I wouldn't be able to do it period, but I may try sometime.

*Edit*

Would a monk be good for this kind of play? Magic resistance and a damage machine. Dunno how well he would resist hold and that type of stuff, but it is worth a thought.

 

I had a feeling my posts in this topic was a bit fuzzy.

As for definitions, are these acceptable:
Hardcore = No deaths, no save&reload
Ironman = Soloing Hardcore

BG2 is not installed on my PC right now, but I'll probably reinstall it in the next days. I think sorcerer is a good choice because you use summons and fight from a distance. This hopefully reduces the risks of instant deaths/incapacitations.
Inquisitor has crossed my mind, but I haven't really considered the implications of using this class. I have never solo'd a paladin, which is quite a drawback. I've quite a bit of soloing experience with sorcerers on the other hand.

@fade
You can't rely on the MR percentage protection of a Monk because there is still a chance - and a significant chance at that - that the MR will fail. It's still a nice bonus, just beware that instant death situations must absolutely be avoided, it does not matter if the chance of character death/incapacitation is 25% or 100%.

I think it might be possible to completely avoid all such potentially lethal situations and still finish the game.

[ September 06, 2003, 00:03: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

@ Earl Grey
Gotcha! What you are saying is that resurrection is OK if we are using NPC's, since resurrection is allowed within the D+D rules. If you are "true" soloing, it's a non-issue since you can't resurrect a PC (you can only reload a saved game, which defeats the purpose of hardcore).
And no problem re your opinions; everyone has to be comfortable with how they're playing the game.

@ fade
You may be right about not making it through. As I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised if I die soon. As for a Monk, that's what Kralizek is boldly playing.

 

@Splunge
I was editing my latest post like crazy. Anyway, now you understand my opinion on resurrection.

Note that I do not think that allowing resurrection in a hardcore/ironman game is a good idea.

Edit:
It occured to me that I did what amounted to an Ironman game last summer. I didn't have to reload until an extremely tough fight in the bottom of Watchers Keep and that was after I had finished SoA. See the (unfinished) story of Isabeau d'Anjou here:
http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000150#000000

I had ToB installed and since this was soloing she reached the ToB XP limit while still in SoA, so it doesn't count as a true SoA Ironman game. It was too easy with all the extra ToB levels, spells and skills.

[ September 06, 2003, 04:06: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Well, I made it. Chapter 3 is done, and I killed Kangaxx. It wasn’t that difficult a fight with the Protection from Magic scroll and Staff of Rynn. However, I had a very strange bug in the 3rd part of Chapter 3. When I went underneath the Graveyard, all the enemies were doubled – there were two Lassals, two Dursts, etc. plus I think there was double the normal number of “no-name” enemies. And their dialogues were doubled as well. I didn’t have an archive save to restore (no point, since this is hardcore), so I had to slug it out. Fortunately, with all the buffing I do, it wasn’t that difficult, and with both the Mace of Disruption and Amulet of Power, I didn't have to worry about level drain. I wouldn’t have felt too bad if I had resorted to Ctrl-Y to get rid of the duplicates, but it wasn’t necessary. Got double the XP too . Only one Bodhi though. Hopefully this is only a one-time thing.

So, I’ve just started Chapter 4. My F/M/T has reached his maximum levels (11/12/14), and my R/C is about 100,000 points away from his cleric max (level 20). Unfortunately, I won’t have much time to play over the next 2 weeks, so this may be the last update from me for awhile.

So Kralizek, how is your game going? I share your concerns that Macready’s and Malovae’s games are over since we haven’t heard from them for over a week, but I hope I’m wrong.

Earl Grey, have you had a chance to start your game yet?

 

Strange bug you had there, Splunge.
Hope it doesn't happen again.

I installed the game yesterday and so it's likely that I'll get going with this. I'll follow this topic every day to see what happens.

 

I'm quite sure that this was done ages ago, the attempt is burried deep inside CS somewhere. It was written up in story format.

 

Well, I said I didn’t think I’d have much time to play this week, and I haven’t. I've just started Spellhold, and it’s going to have to stay there for another week since I’ll be out of town.

Depending on whether anyone has any interest left in the hardcore style, this may be the last post from me in this thread; obviously, Macready, Malovae and Kralizek are out of it, and I’m not sure if Earl Grey has started, started and died, or is still going strong. I might be just talking to myself here. Oh well, I’ll see in a week.

 

Noooo Splunge, do not leave us !
I am still alive and doing well, it is just that real life (and some booze) has pretty much catched up with me this past week. I am actually going to progress over the weekend. I just do not feel like playing in short burst, but I will be posting here as soon as something major happens.
Do you really think that if my PC would have died I would not have told you ? I would of course have shared the sadness with you.