HE and the war

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I appreciate your point, but I think it is key to consider not which religous groups were included in the Werrmarcht (sp), but which groups were excluded . Jews, Gypsies, Wiccans and other Earth Religions, Coptics, etc.

There is not only an inclusive nature to America, but a non-exlusive one as well. The only religious groups who do not serve are those who abstain due to faith, not who are excluded because of faith (Jehovah Witness, 7th Day, etc).

In this factor America is truly unique in the company of World Powers throughout history.

 

I've been reading a few posts tonight and this is the thread I've decided to respond to.

In the exceptionalism thread Tal bemoans that any comment directed at the United States or President Bush descends into a mockery as the American Forces counterattack with cries of "Basher".

I am going to try to explain my feelings on the matter.

The biggest problem I have is that most of the topics have no point except to shed the United States in a poor light. I do not see how any of it is even suitable for a discussion. Then being banned by the AODA rules from calling it bashing causes our "Right to Free Speech" nerves to get irritated.

In this thread Tal has twice mentioned that he is amazed he can still see the thread through all the smokescreen. Well maybe I'm a little slow so why don't we all go up and give the original post another read. Go ahead I'll wait.

Wait

Wait

O.K. what did everyone come up with? Here is what I have.

1. The first sentence and the quote seem to imply that Ragusa is unhappy with Cheney's choice of a Christmas card. I read the quote, I read some links about it, and my conclusion is so what. Now I could see if the card said "Wishing you a white Christmas as we kill all the darkies in the next year" that this would be cause for concern. However, I don't see how quoting Ben Franklin is serious enough to get everyone into Defcon 1 conspiracy mode. My initial thought was that Ragusa got a Christmas card, but that didn't make any sense.

2. The second sentence seems to imply a comparison between the United States and Nazi Germany. Needless to say this offensive to most people and if it isn't I worry about those people.

3. The final (and largest quote) is explaining to us Americans that a South African Bishop has figured out that America does evil things. Now he may be right, but I think it is a hell of a stretch to think we are alone in this area. Borrowing from the exceptionalism thread, yes we do feel that way. We always feel that we are the good guys, that we can solve anything, etc. etc. That is just a part of the American "Can Do" spirit. I don't think you will find anyone in the states who doesn't believe that our government hasn't done a few shaky things. Heck, most people don't think the CIA has ever done anything but shaky things.

So to summarize. We had a complaint about a Christmas card, were called Nazis, and were told we were evil. Nope, nothing here to upset anyone that I can see.

In my opinion Tal should have given a warning to Ragusa. The warning should have said something like this. "Ragusa, per the AODA FAQ this forum is for posts with more serious subject matter. Politics, religion, history, philosophy and current events around the world would be good examples of what to post about. Please explain to me how this is a serious topic that would foster intelligent and lively debate/discussion."

As to quotes that American's could start threads showing the dirty laundry of other nations. I know I for one do not care for that. If there are sour grapes towards the United States, I find it comparable to the people who hate Microsoft. They are the biggest and therefore the easiest of targets. The whiners like to state that Linux is a more secure system. It is only secure, because who would write a virus that would only effect a very small popluation. How is that going to get in the newspaper?

I apoligize for the long winded ramblings, but it has been a long day and I'm getting tired. Who knows, when I wake up I may read this entire post and edit it to oblivion. I hope that this can help shed some light on what has been bothering us about the the direction the AODA has been heading. Of course, I can only speak for myself.

 

You've brought up a good point Snook the Great, and I also feel that this and the exceptionalism thread (which I shall reply to shoprty) are closey linked.

This is AoDA material because it has brought up so much discussion. Anything which at least two distinct parties can have seperate opinions on is a discussion, it is obvious that there are many shades inbetween here, but they do range the entire spectrum.

Now give me some time so I can adress all of your concerns in order.

What is objected to is the inference that America rules, or should rule, by divine right. We know almost every other King, Emperor, or dictator has done the same thing, but the fact that there are previous occurences does not make this one right, nor does it justify it.

Now if one is to take a theological perspective, as has been noted, a God (any God or god, which one it is is irrelevant) would be aware of any empire, but this does not mean it is 'good' or right' It is the fact that every occurrence (theologically) happens for some purpose or at least, if in no purpose, then at least in the awareness of divinity. This may mean it is an evil which will force people to go another way, it may mean that is is there as an example for others so as what not to do, it may be there to provide the lessons for those doing it that they should not. It may even be the best thing that could happen for any of these reasons, or it could be inconsequential.

The fact is, it is a sure sign to me that a zealot is evident when the words are spoken "this is god's will, we do his work" or anything at all similar, while people are murdered, and the earth is extorted, for personal gain. Satisfaction of your ideaologies, as just as you may believe they are right, to the obvious detriment of others, is still personal gain, and is immoral.

This is a quagmire of course, for eventually someone will believe that your actions lead to their detriment. They may be wrong, the fact may be that your actions lead only to prosperity and well-being, and they only erroniously believe that it is to their detriment, or it only feels to their detriment right now because they cannot see what is truly happening.

Eventually you make a judgement, you may be right, you may be wrong, but there is nothing else you can do.

This is what we are discussing. Some may believe that America's actions are to the final gain, are eventually good. While any action can only lead to good in enternity, here and now is what is important, not because here and now matters, but becasue it matters what we do for our own reasons, what we decide to do and how we live is what is important.

The parralell is now evident. Forget the nazis, you're focusing on the wrong part of the picture, looking for offense so you can justify to yourself dismissal of what is being said. No-one is calling American's Nazis or anything else, what is being said is that in comparison both groups belived their caiuse was just- justified by God if you will- while others disagree, that is all, that we do not feel that their cause is right, nor their actions, nor their justification. It could be a commercial fisherman saying God ordained him to do whatever he decided to do, because that is what he does and if God disagreed he wouldn't put up with it. That's not how it works. It doesn't make it right "because I can" which is what in effect is being said.

Now, you've made an interesting point in your final statement, re-inforcing to me exactly what that bishop was saying, and what I tried to make clear in the other thread.

You know your governmet does the wrong thing, as we are all aware of our own governments immorality I am sure, yet you fail to see any further than this, or at least I assume you do based upon what you have said.

You draw a line, rightly, between yourselves and your government, and yet when one is spoken about the government you take it to heart. Ragusa makes a statemt upon one man one man, and you conclude that

Why do you say this? One statement you say that you are aware of your governments infedilities, and as such seperate yourselves from them, and then the next you conclude anything said about such a governmet must also be said about you? You are entering a false dichotomy here, an emotional response perhaps but this is what I refer to with mis-placed patriotism.

Now, I myself shall borrow from the other thread. I am aware that many people disagree with America's actions, who live inside America. It is in fact one of the points I try to put across when I am trying to assert I am not attacking each and every American, or even any individuals. But here we are talking about a generalisation, and how else could one talk about an entire country? No, I am aware many do not support their government, but irrespective of that that governmet is in power. There are only a handful of ways in which this could happen. Enough people, a sizeable majority, either agree with their government's stances enough to support them, or simply do not care enough about the consequences to bother doing a thing.

This is what you have alluded to, that you (and I'm parapharing here) but that you as a people believe that your cause is just, that your actions are correct.

And you also say in defense of America

This is what I am talking about. You are aware that you are doing the wrong thing, yet you do not care. You justify. You say, well, others do the same, or they would, so we aren't wrong. How many times do I have to say that two wrongs do not make a right? This is what has been called Amrican exceptionalism, the belief, in the face of all other evidence, that America are the good guys, and that you can do no wrong, and if you did, then so what? this is what you have said!

Now, your last point. Why do we target America so. I shall endeavour to explain myself, try to shed some light on this issue from a foreign perspective.

You are right, America is big, but they also throw their weight around a lot. America is the one starting wars, with the arsenal to defeat any other challenger, they have the power, and are showing they are not afraid to use it to further their own cause.

America leads the hegemony, they head the UN, they control the WTO, they have the largest commericial and political influence across the globe, be it the insiduous trading with like-minded governmets across the earth, or be it the extortion of the land or it's people in undeveloped nations, America leads the charge.

Thus they are the biggest threat, the biggest unkown factor. Too many, and of course I hope it is clear by now I do not mean all, for I know that there are many of you who do not fit this picture, throughy our own choice and merit, but too many of it's people slumber at their lives too concerned with their own well-being, which ultimately suffers as much as anyone elses, while those in charge of it's corporations, and of it's administartion, blunder across the globe to make whatever benefit they can for themselves. Who will stop them?

Now I agree 100% that America is not alone in it's wrong-doing, but is seemingly isolated in it's self perception. I hate my government, and I cannot understand, or stand at all for that matter, the countless drones, who number far above me, who will allow it to proceed unchecked. They have numbers by their side, I cannot change their minds for them, all I can do is refuse to play a part in it myself. Those I know in most foreign countries feel the same way. Yet we are met by Americans, who will willingly proffer their disrepsect for their governmets actions, and who will immediately distance themselves from those inumerable masses shrouded in greed or apathy who seemingly support it, and yet will take any comment any comment about that government, or as a generalisation on those who support it, as a sign of ignorant blasphemy. We know you don't like them, so how can we be talking about you when we talk of those who do?

It is a dangerous position to take, that of indifference, it is even more dangerous when one offers indifference yet seems to live by corroboration, who will justify the actions of those they say they dis-like, and who they act indifferent to, all by themselves, when it would seem they would be on the bandwagon of those they suggest like-mindedness to.

America is dangerous, it is important, for this reason. It pervades our lives, it's influnces are felt. It is certain corruption is everywhere, and it is shared by leaders and money-grabbers across the globe equallly, yet it is spearheaded by American personell, simply because they are the biggest, the strongest, the most numerable this is why we fear them, this is why we resent them- I do not feel this way towards it's people, for I feel sympathy for them as much as any other, they feel the brunt of their country as hard as those who live outside it I am sure; but they are the first ones who can make a change- It is powerful, and it is allowed to be so by the ones who should prevent it, it's own people. As much as I will espouse the evils of my own leaders, they are held somewhat in check. By fear of losing votes, it is true, but at least they rightly fear to some extent those they look down upon. For how could such a government view it's citizens with anything but contempt? It uses them to keep it's power, it feels nothing of compassion against those it so uses, or it would cease doing so. Anyone can tell things could be far better, and there is a better way.

Your country does not love you. Why do you love it?

Edit: I took a long time to write this so did not see Beren's post. That is what I was trying to say somewhere in the middle, and in the opposite thread, that a statement refined to a particular person or people does not, nor was it intended to, pertain to everyone who lives there.

[ January 03, 2004, 07:40: Message edited by: Manus ]