Help choosing class combos and feats

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yeah I'll think about it.

I forgot one of the reasons that I went for the paladin level was the Holy Avenger. that being said, you are right that I might not need the high charisma.

I guess I already have one Paladin 1/Monk 1/Cleric X, with good charisma, wisdom and dex. This one should have a different focus because I want a frontliner who happens to be able to cast spells pretty well.

I'm not sure I can think of any more useful mix in classes other than monk.

 

Toss in Ranger if you like dual-wield. Holy Avenger + Golden Heart sword is one hell of a combo I can tell you, since you anyway don't need a shield. Or if you don't like that, use the patch from Ease-of-use that turns Holy Avenger into a Greatsword (you'll get 1.5*STR bonus for damage then).
Whatever you do, take no more than 3 levels in mix-ins. A level 27 cleric gets +9 to STR, DEX and CON from Draw Upon Holy Might, which is freakishly huge.

 

I've got the patch that turns the Holy Avenger into a Greatsword, which I prefer. I might change my mind, perhaps the dual wielding options would be nice.

I already plan to give my first monk paladin cleric (the one with 10 str) a ranger level so that she can dual wield short swords. My druid/cleric is using two handed axes (shes a battleguard of tempus).

The only thing that I dont like about Draw Upon Holy Might is its short duration. 10 rounds means I need to cast it basically before every encounter. Although even now it will give my main cleric +4 to Con, Dex and Str, which is quite nice, especially the Con since there are no other spells to increase it (other than Ilmaters Endurance).

 

You said some good things, it's nice to know my opinions about monk Evasion, ranger dual-wielding and the importance of CON hasn't fallen on deaf ears!
Your new build looks nice, but the above description doesn't work: with 18WIS, 14STR&CON you designed it primarily as a spellcaster, since its combat stats are sub-optimal. A true battlecleric has maxed STR & CON, any DEX you can spare, and enough WIS to get to 20 with items later on.
If you're going to make a ranger1/monk1/clericX, you're better off maxing WIS for the extra AC bonus, but I wouldn't call it a frontliner, let alone a battlecleric.

Personally I don't understand why people don't appreciate the awesome power of the ranger1/monk1/druidX: the 'synergies' of high WIS work so well with the monk and druid classes. High WIS for a frontline cleric won't do him as much good as maximized CON, and STR. Druids need the high spell DC, because they use much more spells that need to overcome enemy saving throws.

 

Yeah, I hear what you are saying.

Right now, I have two similar characters. One is level 12, the other is level 2.

The level 12 one will become a primary spellcaster, but can sit on the frontlines with no problems. I had to minimize some stats to get her Charisma, Wisdom and Dex up, so she only has a Con of 12 and a Str of 10, with an Int of 6. For the first part of the game, she was my secondary warrior. She's supposed to end up being very hard to kill, with good AC, good saving throws, spell resistance, and evasion. So she can sit on the frontlines casting any needed spells, whether that be healing or damage dealing. Hasnt worked as well as I'd hoped, her AC isnt high enough yet, even with buffs, to keep her safe, and as I said spell resistance doesnt work as well as I had hoped. still, she only recently gained the monk level that came with evasion and increased AC, so after some more hours of playtime I will see how she does. In retrospect some more CON wouldnt have hurt, maybe at the expense of Dex. Shes uses weapon finesse and small blades, hence she will take a ranger level so that she can dual wield effectively.

The second character has higher strength and con but lower dex. She has 18 WIS, not sure whether to increase it to beyond 20 or focus on other stats such as Dex, Con or Str. Other stats might be a better plan. Whether she takes a ranger level or not will depend on whether I want her to dual wield - right now that would probably be a no. the only question is whether she needs 12 charisma (for the paladin saving throw bonuses) or can do with lower charisma in exchange for better combat abilities (I'm leaning towards this now).

I now think a level of monk should be mandatory for most clerics, even if they would rather wear armor. Evasion, combined with high dex, is just amazing.

I would give my Druid/Cleric a monk level, but doing so would incur EXP penalties since she is a female drow. Oh well... At least she has barkskin, and I can still cast cats grace on her (although her current armor selection isnt condusive to it).

 

I'm not too sure about this, though. Check for yourself, but my clerics have the worst reflex saving throws in the team. None of my team's r.s.t. are low, because of the importance of it, but for clerics it's not as reliable a protection as say, spell resistance and lots of hitpoints. My 18DEX fighter4/clericX has a lower r.s.t. than my 15DEX bard5/clericX. It seems that starting as a bard did that character a lot of good.
My battleclerics have other mix-ins, 4 levels fighter, and 5 levels bard, so combining this with a monk mix-in would be impractical too.
I agree with AjaX that you should drop the paladin level with your new build, there's such a thing as taking too much on your plate.
If your spellcasters took the spell penetration feats, that would explain why you take so much damage despite spell resistance. this feat is bad karma if you use spell resistance in any way, which most players do.
Maxing WIS at the start will be fine, it may spoil it for you, but there are plenty of items which can increase your WIS to 20 or over, and that's all you need for a cleric's buffs, healing, summons, etc. Think about it: would you like to have 26WIS, so that your enchantments have +3DC, and have a small chance of affecting the most powerful enemies, or would you prefer +3 hitpoints per level, or a +3 strength modifier in melee?
BTW, IIRC weapon finesse only works when using 1 small blade, and the off-hand free, so probably can't be combined with dual-wielding...

About the druidX/clericX, it's not wise to progress equally in 2 classes in IWD2, because of the leveling scheme.
In BG2 such a character would be level 14/14 at the time a single class character would be level 18, so casting level 7 spells max instead of level 9.
In IWD2 your character will be level 9/9 instead of level 18. Casting level 5 spells max as opposed to level 9 spells. This is completely unacceptable, so for spellcasters in IWD2, (near) single class is the way to go.

 

@coiny
-Dude the point of high WIS is more for AC than for DC (no pun intended). No battlecleric with any kind of armor can match a high WIS Cleric with a Monk lvl. This makes a Monk/Cleric a more survivable frontliner. And besides, who says Clerics dont have offensive spells? Flame Strike? Greater Command? Harm? Holy Word? Symbol of Hopelessness? Symbol of Pain? Firestorm? And of course, some pretty hefty spells under the Ilmater domain, notably Horrid Wilting and such.
-Weapon finesse can be used in dual wielded short swords, this I've tested.
-Druid X/Cleric X is in fact a very viable build, giving benefits from both classes, and creating a very damaging melee character (trust me, she's lethal with Big Death if used properly). And the spell DCs are high enough to batter most enemies too, surprisingly enough.

 

What Ajax said.

In particular, my Druid/Cleric will be Druid 17/Cleric 13. Shes Druid 11/Cleric 1 right now (needed the battleguard of tempus level for axes).

EDIT:

That being said, its stupid to ignore Dex, Con and Str for a cleric, but it depends what you want out of them. Con really helps hitpoints and concentration. I guess, the thing is with hitpoints, is that if you never get hit, you dont need to worry about them. I dont think think there is a reliable way of being completely out of harms way, even with the cheesiest power gaming builds, but it still is a good thing to try.

With Dex, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you have low dex but high wis for for the monk ac bonus, since they both have equal effects on DC. I guess in the case of Dex, at least cats grace will benefit it, but still...

As for Str, only useful if you want your clerics on the frontlines swinging weapons, and even then, it can be boosted by other means. There may be items that boost Wis, such as every gods ring, but no spells do.

 

Armors also have some benificial effects, which you may miss out on. You're right that monk1/clericX with high WIS and buffed DEX will always beat an armoured cleric, but the difference is 3 or 4 points AC, this is good only in normal mode. Plus I like to use armours when I find them.
Proteus: avoiding to get hit is something that I de-emphasised, simply because the game rules and spells aren't designed for this. You can protect yourself, but there are no immunities like in BG2. So you'd better design your party to be able to take a punch!
AjaX: The generic cleric spells you names are mostly meh, because there are better buffs and healing spells on that level to choose anyway. The big exception being Holy Word which has no saving throw, making DC irrelevant.
And I'm sure what you said about druidX/clericX spells applies for lesser enemies in normal mode, but he'd become a liability in HoF. And the melee doesn't mean much, as any non-arcane spellcaster can melee well enough.
Proteus, I'd keep your build as druidX/cleric1, because you'll regret lagging behind in spellcasting later: less spells, lower level, less damage, lower DC, shorter durations. You're taking too much on your plate!
A slight bonus the WIS AC has over DEX AC, is that you retain the bonus against invisible foes.

You had your cleric on the frontline, right? What do frontliners do, when all else fails? If your answer is 'cast spells', I'd reply with a 'Spell Disrupted'. Frontliners are gonna be targeted and will take damage. If you remove the 'only' from that first sentence, I agree!
And it's better to boost spellcasting stats with items anyway: then it can't be dispelled so you can rely on the extra casting DC, and you can be sure it will be there after you rest so you get the extra spells.
How great is it to maximize strength on level ups, and buff it even higher? Or better yet: maximize your constitution (useful for a drow's -2CON, removes its weakness), and buff your strength up too, so you have a hard hitting frontliner that can take a punch too!

 

Har, endless debate ahoy! Raise the mice, man the keyboards!!
-Symbol of Hopelessness is the most disabling mass enchantment spell in the game, period. Mass Dominate sucks coz if you damage the Dominated monsters they turn against you. This is WAY better, as any affected creature is either stunned or confused. Very effective on large scale melee warriors. And you'd be mad to call Firestorm 'meh'.
-LIKING to use armors is another thing. I like to dual-wield Bastard swords, tho there are other weapons more effective.
-Game can very easily create an unhittable character, even without any cheating or cheesy stupidity. Unhittable here means incredibly low chances to hit (lower than 5%, since such a char shud be using stuff like Blink or Mirror Image). If your chances of getting hit are like maybe 2-3%, AND you have some CON AND the Concentration skill, please explain to me where "Spell Disrupted" comes into the picture.
-The Druid 13/Cleric 17 is meant as a support caster, mainly for Barkskin and some buffs. Its not a primary healer. Aside from casting support, the melee damage is humongous, way more than your average focused-on-survival tank.
-The ONLY place in the game where Dispel Magic is a mild danger is Dragon's Eye. And even here it can easily be avoided with a bit of creative thinking. Otherwise, I have never had my buffs dispelled anywhere else in the game.

Edited to add: As for the AC, lemme settle this with some statistics. Base AC is 10, give it +1 from Dodge, +6 from Divine Shell, +9 from Generic equipment boosts (+9 each for 2 chars is the game's limit), +5 Barkskin, say +5 from DEX (minimum), +4 frm Haste, +2 from Bard Song. Now-:
AC = 42 (till now calculated)
w/ Armor and Shield-:
+8 maximum (Chain of Drakkas' Fury)
+4 maximum (Blessed Flank of the Virgin)
Total = 54

w/ WIS bonus-:
+11 - +15 (not at all hard if you raise WIS every time)
+6 OR +7 (either Spirit Armor or Shield Ring/Amulet)
Total = 59 - 64.

Now you all can understand the above. And note, I took only a small DEX bonus (it can easily by +6 or +7. Toss in DUHM and it can hit +8 or +9.), and did not include Deep Gnome. And the AC came to 64. Add in another +1 for more DEX, +4 from Deep Gnome. That's 69. Use Blur, and Shifter's Boots, and Mirror Image. Then see what touches you.
Oh, and being a high level Cleric, your STR bonus can be a good +7 (15/16 base STR + DUHM @ lvl 27), and a CON of 24 or so at least (base 15/16 + DUHM). So much for combat.

 

What is the average attack bonus of enemies in HOF? How high would you need to get your AC to have less than a 5% chance of being hit?

 

Maximum attack bonus of general enemies (including Slayer Knights, excluding the Twins, the Guardian, and Chimaeras) is +52. Therefore you need an AC of 72 for only 5% base chance of being hit. Though an AC slightly less will serve, if you have other means of protecting yourself.

 

Ah okay, thanks. I remember reading in the JUPP that 72 was the magic number to get, now I understand why.

EDIT:

Reading through the JUPP once more, I've got to thinking what kind of character I should create.

I'm thinking about an extra sorcerer for more blasting power, but I'm also thinking a melee cleric would go down nicely too. Its not like clerics are exactly gimped when it comes to spellcasting, although they arent nearly as effective as sorcerers for blasting.

What do you guys think? I have 2 divine casters and 2 arcane casters right now.

 

Take a bard. I don't think it will be fun if you add another sorcerer or cleric who is just a weaker copy of another character who has far more XP.

 

AjaX, this isn't an endless debate, but more of a repetition of what we discussed earlier:
You're using some high level spells to become 'unhittable', and you can only do this a couple of times before needing to rest. My party can do this just as well, but since I like the challenge of going on for days on end before resting, I can only do this a few times. That's also the reason why I prefer Resurrection over Firestorm: Firestorm is a neat spell; my Lathander cleric always uses it, but my wizards have much better AoE spells, whether they're more damaging, less resisted, target a weaker saving throw, party friendly, for every reason a wizard outblasts a cleric. Resurrection comes in handy when you're in dozens of battles, and don't reload whenever someone gets killed.
Blink has 20% spell failure chance, so I reserve this for when the situation is dire, and my magi must resort to melee. Similarly I use Mirror Image as a quick-cast protection against eniemies that approach my magi, so I rarely cast it before combat. If you cast MI and didn't even get targeted, the spell was wasted.
If you have the Improved Bastard Swords component from Ease-of-Use installed, then there isn't a more effective weapon you can use: No normal 2-handed weapon with 1.5x strength modifier can beat 4d10+3(+5) damage, only the Elemental Half-Dragon Alternate Druid Shapeshift is better! I like it when my dwarf dual-wields them, it looks mad, barbaric!
Your character, with MI, Blink, etc. is near unhittable, but Proteus was talking about a cleric... so only a deep gnome cleric could do MI, and Blink with items.
WIS bonus AFAIK can't get over +14 though: 5 (20WIS start) + 2 (both Holy Transference potions) + 5 (10WIS on level ups) + 2 (that ring) = 14
This is only at level 40, assuming you took a race that starts with 20WIS, like an aasimar. Spirit Armor and Shield are too short lasting for my taste: you'd have to rush to your next battle, and risk it wearing off during combat.

Spoiler

Jaheira's Harper Pin from bonus merchant gives a constant shield effect though.

Mage Armor (only +4) is an hour per level, so suits my playing style best. I cast it along with Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength.
During the game you acquire better and better armours and shields, and in my experience, these always lag behind WIS AC + buff by a handfull of points at most. Not 10, so we're kinda in agreement here about the calculation, but not the significance of the points. What you didn't consider was other armours and shields:
Clerics can wear heavy armours, the best I know of is 13 with +1 max DEX bonus, basically the same as Drakkas' Fury. Shields however can be as high as +7 Darksteel Shield, a mod Item, my guess is from Light of Selune.
In HoF, AC64 would protect you from 50% of hits I estimate, this isn't as good as 5% from AC72.
Symbol of Hopelessness can be cast by magi too, and can't be compared with Mass Dominate. Confused opponents may still attack you, but it's a nice option if you also want to damage them too. My favourite use of Mass Dominate was against the barbarian horde: my cleric rushed in and when in the middle of the group, she cast Holy Word, holding them in place. Then some saving throw lowering spells cast simultaneously with Mass Dominate, and NONE of them saved against it. There was nothing left to fight so they killed one another off, one at a time. Only the final barbarian left managed to hit me ONCE before dying. Mass Dominate isn't too hard to pull off, just use your common sense: don't cast it after a lasting AoE spell.
It's better for the durations of buff spells to have a dedicated cleric and a dedicated druid separately.

I wrote a lot. Again.
Too much? Too much.

 

LOL, you made your points and I get your pov, dont worry
As it is, I didnt include that particular shield as I don't have LoS (it has some pretty retarded restrictions).
WIS can get to +15 bonus, assuming you're a Dreadmaster. If not, then it can get to +13 max.
Ah yes, I forgot about that Bastard Sword of Heroism. Yeah, I guess it is stronger then. Unless you're superbly lucky and get that Massive Greataxe of Flame.

 

I actually found three Bastard Swords of Heroism in my HoF run, so I could dual-wield them! The massive greataxe was 2d12 right? With enough strength it might beat the bastard swords. Personally I liked the enhanced Cold Fire, which I used for most of the game till I found BSoH. It's 1d10+3 +3d6cold +3d6fire, it's a bit more damage, but many enemies resist either cold or fire, or both. Since there are 3 different types of damage, all three undergo damage resistance separately, so damage is often much less.
Now I know a bit more about the Dreadmaster of Bane quest reward. So it's 3 or 4 points WIS? I never played a dreadmaster, and only found unspecific references to the quest, it's not detailed in any of the walkthroughs. Does it involve Cera Sumat or the Xvim mission?
As for light of Selune, almost all of the restrictions are in the Class Upgrades component, which you can choose not to install. The only other thing is the 13+WIS restriction for Cera Sumat, which you can override by (re)installing Improved Holy Avenger component from Ease-of-use. Just read the advice I put in my link-list thread (top of IWD2 forum page). You should try it, it has some great items, boosts many shields' AC and improves bows, which was badly needed.
Don't forget to temporarily install Class Upgrades for druid Tremor at level 8 (makes more sense, why can clerics cause earthquakes at lvl8 and druids only at lvl9? should be the other way around). Just read my link-list

 

Massive Greataxe of flame has 2d12 slashing, +2d6 fire and 10% chance of +1d10 fire damage.
Dreadmaster quest is Hiepherius, the Orog cleric of Bane you face when you arrive in Kuldahar. Beating him gives Dreadmasters a +2 WIS bonus. Do it again in HoF, and you get +4 to WIS total.
LoS puts a STR restriction on Bows as well, which is seriously retarded.

 

Well the 5th Character has been changed slightly. Shes now a Paladin 2 (for hitpoints, weapon proficiencies, immunity to fear and disease and BAB), Monk 1 (for evasion and later Wis bonus to AC when her Wis is high enough) and later Painbearer of Ilmater X. I might add levels of things like Fighter and Rogue depending on the need, but for now she is just going to slowly level up.

Yeah shes quite a bit behind the others. The nice thing is shes sort of an unintentional mule - she drops the average party level considerably, boosting experience for all. I'm going to give her the tome that gives +10 000 XP, but even so she will be many levels behind. Hmmm, come to think of it she will never really catch up. maybe it isnt worth it. I could cheat her up to the right level..... but that seems wrong somehow. I dont know, will decide on it later.

She has:
16 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
6 int
18 Wis
8 Chr

Her Chr can provide a small bonus to her saving throws when I cast Eagle's Splendour on her, which is nice.

I have heard about the DreadMaster of Bane quest reward, but I dont usually play evil aligned characters for role playing reasons. Or Clerics of Bane or Talos anyway.

On another note, my sorcerer has the worst Dex score of my bunch (6), but the highest reflex saving throw because of the Charisma based bonus to saving throws. If only he were human and not aasimar, I could add a monk level with incurring exp penalties. I guess I would lose some spells and some spell DCs, I like a powerful spellcaster. Perhaps giving him evasion wouldnt be as important as blasting power.

 

If you're muling with a Paladin, make sure it has at least 1 level in some other class, or you will not be able to sneak into the Yuan-Ti temple (pure Paladins refuse to wear the Initiate Robes).
I'd suggest not adding any more classes to your char #5. 2 Pal and 1 Monk levels are enough.