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Shralp, I wonder how seriously you take your own jokes. Cause if you do take them as seriously as you do the one that azirath posted, I have to say: patriotism and ignorance don't go well together.

 

Who told you I wasn't sinister!!! Tell me!

I just don't believe that money isn't the major aspect of this help. If they wouldn't make big bucks out of it, why bother?

Who is the losers in an oil crisis, the western world? no, the 3rd world? yes.

Do we really care with showing economical support? no, why not? because it doesn't affect our everyday lives.

of course this isn't the truth in all situations, but money does play major factor in all that is connected with trade and power.

Yes of course I post here to get noticed and respected
I post because I believe something that you probably don't, just sharing my point of view whether you like it or not

 

Elendil, you're thinking of the Washington Times. The Washington Post is definitely a liberal rag.

Invoker, try to make some substantiated claims instead of just slinging insults.

Lokken, you sexy cynic, I pointed out the U.S.'s helping hand in order to show that the world DOES NOT WANT the U.S. to become isolationist. I certainly never said that we propped the Euro up out of philanthropism. (Folks were arguing that the U.S. meddles too much.)

 

ok shralp what part did turkey, for example play in this drama ? Other than loosing billions of dollars lost via the ambargo onto Iraq due to oil pipes. Allowing US planes and military bases for years etc..

PS: i am not hurling insults. I am not offended by anything posted here. All I am saying is depicting whole middle east like that is misguided.

 

My dear pal, that presumption is 100% wrong.

There is NO patriotism without ignorance. Otherwise you would see that every nation has it's good and bad ones, and patriotism is just our "cave age" leftover - the need to belong somewhere.

 

Ah. Someone engages.

Ok, Invoker. Why in the world do you ask about Turkey? They've been using things like this for years to improve their position in Europe. I hope you didn't think I was bashing Turkey anywhere, because I don't think I did.

Extremist, I would actually agree with you in many cases -- lots of people feel patriotism simply based on the fact that they were born in a particular country. But I like to think I'm patriotic because I genuinely feel that this is the freest society in modern times, bar none. It's not perfect, but it's the best I know of. If someone else, England perhaps, creates a greater society -- sign me up!

 

extremist i stand corrected. Still that would depend on how you define a patriot.

shralp turkey was an example because they're not arabs and in middle east and have nothing to do with this situation. I don't feel comfortable seeing people degrading masses all at one stroke be it an arab or american.

but it seems i was mistaken and i'll disengage (btw that "someone engages" remark gave me good laugh )

 

To think how easily this could have been avoided...

[This message has been edited by Azardu (edited October 11, 2001).]

 

Lokken I am sorry. I should have said you only post here to get the number of post up. Now that is cynism for. As cynical as saying that US only help other countries to benefit their own economics.

A true patriotist is per definition ignorant. Else he wouldn't be a patriot, would he? But some say that ignorence is a virtue. So ignorance makes a patriot stronger in his beliefs don't they?

 

Okay folks, before things get more... um... confusing. Lets level off here first and get our words and meanings straight just in case the point is pursued further.

Are you folks sure "patriotism" is the functional word here, not "nationalism"? I know its semantics but there is a difference between the two words.

Nationalism:
loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

Nationalist:
devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others; "nationalist aspirations"; "minor nationalistic differences"

Nation:
-A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
-The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
-The government of a sovereign state.
-A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: ¡°Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity¡± (Robert Conquest).
-A federation or tribe, example: Native Americans.
-The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

Patriotism:
Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

Patriot:
One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.


The way I see it, all patriots are nationalists. But not the other way around. Not all nationalists love their own country. As you folks can see, a country may be composed of various nations. Nations are defined more by culture, not political boundaries.

Here's an example:

There are a lot of Arab countries, but apparently, one Arab nation.

There are even more Muslim countries, yet apparently, two (maybe more) Muslim nations, the Shi'ite and the Sunite(?). Not to mention Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world, yet have distinct differences from the Arabs.

I know, very political science-y of me. God I hope I didn't confuse you folks more. But I felt this might head off potential misunderstandings in the future.



Folks, as always, feel free to disagree with me. Maybe you guys can modify, change, criticize or whatever. My intention was to establish some sort of middle ground where everyone can level off.



[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited October 11, 2001).]

 

No, Nobleman, it's not the professor's fault, it's probably mine. I tried to capture his own words, but I probably didn't quite translate in the spirit of the English language. Probably I still stayed in Croatian. Let me explain.
The professor is, IMHO, a very smart man who is trying to proove the many reasons of the terorists' attack and who is saying that a big deal of those reasons come from the US foreign politics, which led to the US being the prime target in the attack. Of course, he is not justifying the attack, he's just trying to take a grasp of both sides. He is not implying anything you are saying (you are saying that probably because of my translation).

a) What the guy is saying is that the US government, media and such are keeping secret lot of information about US actions on the Middle East from the majority of the public. Why? Because that information is extremely controversial, meaning that the majority in the US probably doesn't know about the massacre of the Iraqi soldiers during their withdrawal from Kuwait, the seige of Beirut, the hunger in Iraq (because of the US blockade), and many other "dirty laundry" things. Policy is dirty bussiness. When someone says that the reason for the Allies bombing Dresden flat (which resulted in extreme civillian casualties because Dresden was full of refugees) wasn't because there was a bomb factory in it, but because the Allies wanted to break the German spirit, it is an extremely controversial topic to talk about. Same with the foreign US policy.
So, the government is keeping such stuff secret because it want's to evade the public criticism. Such policy of keeping an illusion about "the perfect US", in long terms, isn't in the interest of the American public. Again, why? Because, with such politics, the US is opressing the population of the Middle East. As a result of that, you have some countries visualizeing the US as "the great Devil" and such. You see, the US, in order to satisfy it's fuel demand is supporting various regimes in certain Arabian countries. In some cases, the US itself is producing such regimes. The example is the CIA establishing a "US friendly regime" in Iran 1953. That regime get's overthrown later by the Islamic revolution in the 1970s. Such actions make the US the enemy, and some more radical individuals, from the Middle East population, decide to battle the enemy with desperate means, or terrorism. Terrorism which finally strikes the American public.

b) It's not uneven foreign aid. It's uneven US expense of world energetics, meaning fuel in the Middle East. The US is the nation which is the biggest consumer (can't find a better word) of oil from the Middle East. In order to satisfy it's oil interests, the US supports corruptive and tyrannical regimes.

c) "Terrorist attacks on the US are a good thing because they might tighten the bond between Americans and Israelians" - That was a statement of some Israeli politicians and journalists. Those statements are much more dangerous than the "spontaneous expressions of support" that were expressed by a few Palestinians or some other which have been under strike from US bombs for many years (support-meaning the mobs you could see on TV celebrating the attacks, not some real politic or military support). Why are such statements more dangerous? Because, the people you have seen "cheer" on TV are just a mob and nothing else. A mob which has celebrated a strike agains a great opponent which has stricken them first. Belive me, it is very easy to make people on the edge of poverty, who have lived most of their lives under war, express happyness because someone, who has supported the spreading of the Israeli over thir land and who has given the Israeli weapons, has finally got hurt back. You should also know that there were 3 Israeli-Arabian wars.
On the other hand, you have Israeli intellectuals and educated people, probably of extreme right groups, seeing the opportunity to tighten the alliance and to spread Israeli influence even more, which could result in more Palestinian rebellions, more bloodshed, more trouble and more terrorism. You should also know that the Palestinians are very poorly treated in Israel even though every fifth citizen of Israel is a Palestinian.

The conclusion means that currently, in the US, you can make rasistical prejudices about Arabians and put all Arabians under sterotypical "boxes", with little objection from anyone.
I hope I made it clearer for you now. Honestly, I don't know how could you even think that the professor was implying that what you wrote. Probably my shitty translation.

Shralp, yes it is probably the Washington Times. I remember reading about it, and I thought it was the Post, sorry...
And Shralp, it is not that the world doesn't want the US to become isolationist, like prior to WW2, it's that you CAN'T be isolasionist anymore. Why? (I'm really using this too much) - Because you don't have enough resources to be isolationist anymore. Most of your fuel is coming from the Middle East, you have a lot of interest zones which were established during the Cold War, your whole economy would collapse if you would just suddenly isolate, you have enemies and a lot of vital spots over the world which serve as defensive points against potential and real enemies...etc. Of course, your allies would still like you where you are, because: if you are strong, then they are too.

I would disagree with patriotism being ignorant. If you're a patriot, you just love your country, but if you are extreme with it, like "mine is best and your's isn't" then you're an ultra-nacionalist, ignorant and plainly just fucked up.

 

Hi yo! I have been absent for a while and since the last time I posted this arguement really developed. I still think that Shralp`s jokes are rasistic, but I really don`t wish to fight over it anymore. I just want to give my q.I`m gonna look up to Nobleman and do it with a quote:
I see no changes
I wake up in the morning and I ask myself
Is life worth living should I blast myself
I'm tired of being poor and even worse I'm black
my stomach hurts so I'm looking for a purse to snatch
Cops give a damn about a negroe
Pull the trigger kill a nigga he's a hero
Givin' crack to the kids who the hell cares
one less hungry mouth on the welfare
worship dope let'em deal the brotha's
give'em guns step back watch them kill each other
It's time to fight back that's what Hewie said
2 shots in the dark now Hewie's dead
I got love for my brotha
But we could never go nowhere unless we share with each other
we gotta start making changes
learn to see me as a brotha instead of 2 distant strangers
and that's how it's supposed to be
how can the devil take a brother if he's close to me
I love to go back to when we played as kids
but things changed-that's the way it is

That's just the way it is
Things will never be the same
That's just the way it is
Oh yeah
That's just the way it is
Things will never be the same
That's just the way it is
Oh yeah

I see no changes
All I see is racist faces
misplaced hate makes disgraced the races
we under
I wonder what it takes to make this
one better place let's erase the wasted
take the evil out the people they'll be acting right
they're both black and white are smokin' crack tonight
and the only time we chill is when we kill each other
it takes skill to be real, time to heal each other
and I know it seems heaven sent
we aint ready to see a black president
it aint a secret don't conceal the facts up penetentiary back
and it's filled with blacks
but some things will never change
try to show another way, but you're staying in the dope game
now tell me what's a mother to do
being real don't appeal to the brother in you
you gotta operate the easy way
"I made a G today"
but you made it in a sleezy way
selling crack to the kids
"I gotta get paid"
well hey
that's the way it is

we gotta make a change
it's time for us as a people to start making some changes
let's change the way we eat
let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other
you see the old way wasn't working so it's on
us to do what we gotta do....to survive

and still I see no changes
can't a brotha get a little peace, it's war in the
streets and the war in the middle east
instead of war on the poverty, they got a war
on drugs so the police can bother me
and I aint never did a crime I aint had to do
but now I'm back with the facts giving it back to you
don't let them jack you up, back you up, crack you up,
and pimps slap you up
you gotta learn to hold your own
they gettin' jealous when they see you with your mobile phone
but tell the cops they can't touch this
I don't trust this when they try to rush I bust this
that's the sound of my 2
but they say it and cool
and my momma didn't raise no fool
and as long as I stay black
I gotta stay strapped
and I never get to lay back
cause I always gotta worry about the payback
some fuck that I roughed up way back
coming back after all these years
rat tat tat tat tat tat tat
that's the way it is

some things'll never change

- 2Pac Amaru Shakur - , a man who truly
wanted peace

This song expresses my atittude in a way, you can interpret it however you want.As you know english is not my first langeuge, so I`m sorry for any mistakes in spelling or grammar.That`s all I`ve got to say.

P.S. Nobleman, thanks for comparing me with Groucho Marx, that`s a man I truly admire, but I don`t think I`m that funny!

PEACE!!!

 

Hi Elendil

Once again your english is not bad. Now that you have explained everything to me I understand. I agree with b and c if they are correct. It is obvious that I don't have the same knowledge as you do. But they make sense and that I what I search for.

Then there is a) I can see the point and it is valid indeed. But it puzzles me that if it is a secret to the american people how is it that you know of it?

Amaru. I'll have to ponder on this one a little more. I too like 2pac, as with many rappers he has a lot to say.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 12, 2001).]

 

Amaru, Amaru, Amaru...

First off, the word is "racist." Second off, if you're going to just keep calling names then please back it up. Point to which joke was racist and tell why it is. I don't think I said anything racist, but maybe you can enlighten me -- help me to be a better person -- make the world a better place. If you can show someone how he is racist and help him to change that attitude, then you've done something good. So show me. Maybe others will learn too.

 

Oh dear oh dear.
Amaru for gods sake just because you can read two pac lyrics off the back of a cd does not give you a brilliant standing with racial equality issues and it certainly does not make you sound very cool.
Shralp is not racist and for that matter nor is he racistic! He is simply doing what both sides must do and that is hating each other.
Are you going to tell me that now i am a racist against Nazi's?
Are you indeed going to tell me that the nazi's ere racist against us?
No, they did not like one another because they were at war and whoever was to blame it still meant them opposing each other.
i would like to see you try to say it is racistic to kill the Arabs to Mr Bush!
Plus it is quite clear he is not being racist against all arabs.
There is a Little saying which i think is relevent here.
All Zebras are horses, but not all horses are Zebras.
Think about it before you complain......

 

Minsc doesn't understand what Sir Dargorn means, but will help rid the world of evil!

 

Nobleman, nice custom avatar...
When I say that the public in the US doesn't know, I mean that the majority doesn't know. It's not like you will see on the 8 o'clock news some stuff like that. Most people don't read indepentent newspapers and most people simply don't care to look beneath the surface. For most people, what they see on CNN is what they get. It's like that everywhere. The professor I was writing about wrote an article about US actions in the Middle East. That article didn't get published in the US. It's very easy to manipulate the media. Everywhere, not only in the US. You have a lot of things which are presumed to be true, but the government is either silent about it or is denying it. Controversial topics are not so easily discussed...

Poodle, what the fuck are you saying?

 

Elendil, It is sad if it so. I only know a handfull of americans and they all come here at SP. I take your word for it. So many things to keep track of in this thread I think.

Anyway I don't think Dargorn is giving us a biology lecture, He is just saying that

a) racism and warfare is easily confused
b) That making fun of one group of a nation is not to make fun of the nation.
c) That not all horses are zebras


PS, Thx Elendil.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 14, 2001).]

 

Well thank you Nobleman at last someone understands me!......*hic*

 

Hi yo!
Since you two have been attacking me I guess I should state my defense right? Well here it goes:
Shralp I don`t mean to offend you but I belive I pointed out already what was in my opinion racistic in those jokes of yours, but it`s obvious you payed no attention to what I said before so I`m going to repeat it.
How can you make a map of the entire middle east turned into Israeli protectorats and say that`s not racistic? You don`t have to like the Arabs but you have no right to hate an entire nation just because of one CRAZY lunatic. We all know that Osama Bin Laden is a dumb mothafucker who deserves punishment for what he did, an so do the Taleban but not all Arabs are like that, and I belive you realise that. So maybe you are right, maybe racism ain`t the right word for it, but it`s the only one I can think of. You said to Elendil before that he`s equating the U.S. and the terrorists (I personaly don`t think that he did that but you have every right to your opinion) and pointed out to him how that is evil. Well, you are equating all muslims with terrorists, wich is equally evil.

And now to you Sir Dargorn. First of all I was not trying to sound cool by posting the lyrics of "Changes", that song contains a statement that reminded me of this discussion and that`s why I posted it. And no, just reading 2Pac`s lyrics does not give me a brilliant standing with racial equality issues but that is a problem that interests me very much and I do have a strong standing about it. And that is that ALL people are equal in their rights, and nobody has a right to belive he`s better in any way than another human being just because of the different skin color. I can`t stand that white-power, neonacizam bullshit! I don`t have a brilliant standing, but I do belive I know a little more about it than you, because that`s a problem I`ve been studying for a long time. And yes I`m gonna tell you that Nazi`s are racist against us, maybe you don`t know this but Hitler wanted to exterminate all of te Slavenian nation , and I am a Slaven. I would say it to "Mr" Bush if I could! There is a thin line between warfare and racism, and I belive Shralp crossed over it. And as I`m aware of the U.S. is not at war with all the Arabs, just the Taleban.
P.S. If you ever have the chance take a cover of any 2PAc`s album, and you`ll see there`s no lyrics on it...

Peace!!!

Oh and another thing Shralp, as I already said english is not my first langeuge and I do make some mistakes in spelling, so you`re not proving anything by pointing them out to me...