I am an Idiot (+ Mind Teaser)

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According to one philosopher (Berkley I think), "To Be is to Be Perceived". Therefore nothing exists unless it is witnessed by an intelligent third party.

He tapped off his argument by stating that God is the ultimate witness (and creator) of the universe. Being Omnipresent, he would witness every activity in creation, acting as the Root of its existence.

This puts our "tree in the woods" question in better light. Yes, it would make a sound, because God is there.

 

No I'm not!

 

Uh-oh, I sense trouble brewing!

Perhaps we should rephrase the statement - If a tree falls in the woods, and there are no sentient, upright, primate-like, bipedal, mortal, hearing, sensing, human beings around, would it make a noise as perceived through the triggering of nerve fibers connecting a disc shaped piece of tissue to three bone structures and the section of a heavy gray blob of matter known as the "brain"?

Or not?

And since you say that God is omnipresent, and it is only through Him that we even exist, what happens if he starts day-dreaming?

 

Sapiryl - I didn't mean to complicate the issue (even though that's what I do best!)

If I recall correctly, the last time God was caught day-dreaming, there was a 40 year flood (Okay, that's bad theology, don't throw rocks at me BigGreenPriest!)

Technically, if God did day-dream, then we would all be up the estuary of defecation with no tangible means of propulsion! (Big Green Smiley to anyone who can translate that last sentence!!!)

 

"Up $hit Creek without a paddle"?

 

Alright, alright, clearly you overlooked something in my environment. There is no ground. The tree is infinitely in a state of falling, and for effect, revolving around a fixed point in perpetual motion.

In regards to the philosopher anecdote: without actually hearing his argument, the fact that he said so means nothing to anyone here. His title does not make his word scientific law. I would, however, love to hear exactly what his main points were.

And to quote a famous speaker: "If God lives in us, like some people think, I hope he likes beer, cuz that's what he's getting."

And to quote another: "If we live inside of God, why not take a stroll out his omnipresent ass and see things for ourselves?"

And again: "If God really wanted us to believe in him, he wouldn't exist."

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited May 01, 2001).]

 

Woohoo!! Yay!! Rah! Rah! Rah!

/me cheers wildly for Amon Ra!!

 

I'll let you know tomorrow if the tree made a sound or not.

I didn't have time to watch on the weekend, so I recorded it and I'm watching tonight...

 

good job LM - yeah, it wasn't that hard, but you'd be surprised by the blank looks I get sometimes.

Amon Ra & Darien - I'm shocked and horrified by your comments and cheers. I'm almost at a loss. The words "pagan" and "hilarious" are running through my mind together.

Seriously, I'm one of God's biggest fans, and I know that He has a sense of humor.

 

Hows about : If a tree falls on a mime and nobodies there, does anyone care?

 

Say the mime is suicidal, and went out in the woods in hopes a tree would fall on him?

Amon-Ra

 

Maybe the tree is suicidal too and they date to fade together and still nobody there to notice......life can be sooo cruel

 

Incidentally, I think the philosopher's quote should be "To Be Perceived is to Be" if it is to make sense in conjunction with the post. Personally, I'll go with Amon Ra on this one: a tree falling cannot go unperceived.

DISCLAIMER: altho I agree with Amon Ra on that one, I disagree with his theology. I'm a staunch Christian.

 

For all you smary buggers.

Sentence A: Sentence B is a lie.
Sentence B: Sentence A is the truth.

and

If God can truly do anything as some people say, you are of course wrong, read this and be and then belive that nothing can do anything.

Lets say in this scenario God creates an object so heavy God can't lift it.
If God cannot lift this object, then God can not do anything, as there is an object God can't lift.
But if God can lift it, God cannot do anything because God can't create something it can't lift.

Get it?

 

Who claimed that God can do anything?

Here, let me add to the list of things God cannot do:

God cannot lie.
God cannot fail.
God cannot break a promise.

And so on and so forth.

 

Capstone: Incidentally, I think the philosopher's quote should be "To Be Perceived is to Be"

The original quote of George Berkeley(1685-1753) Bishop of Cloyne(Ireland),
important exponent of the english empirism, was:
Esse est percipi
and if you translate that step by step Mathetais is absolutely right, but if you replace the 'est' with a '=' and use a mathematical rule (can't remember the name) your version is legal (and identical) too.


[This message has been edited by BogiTheWaverer (edited May 17, 2001).]

 

lots of people claim god can do anything, Hardcore christians (i forgot there PC name, but the ones that belive everything in the bible) they have to belive that pi is 3.

 

Bogi - thanks for the backup on Berkeley. My last philosophy class was waaaaayyyy to long ago!

Can God do anything? I believe that He can do anything within the context of His nature. As Capstone said, it is God's nature to be holy, therefore he cannot lie. It is his nature to be consistent, therefore he cannot revoke his promises/covenants.

Can God create a stone that he cannot life?
Two answers.

First, it would be against his nature to do so. He's not in the business of showing off.

Second, yes. God was incarnate as Jesus Christ and there were many stones Jesus couldn't lift. (boy did I just open a can of worms!)

Last question - what is the PC name for bible-believing Christians? I prefer Evangelicals. Fundamentalist has many negative connotations (i.e., Oral Roberts).

Theology is the Ultimate Mind-Teaser! Unfortunately, there aren't many definitive answers.

My favorite theological Q&A:

Skeptic to Martin Luther: "What was God doing during the eternity before he created the world?"

Luther's answer: "Creating Hell for people like you!"

 

Was it Luther? I'm sure I read somewhere that it was Aquinas or somebody, who answered with the less confrontational "time was created along with the world, therefore there was no before"