Imoen Romance

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I have nothing against gay people in fact my sister is an yaoi fan so i am well known with gay people and gay romances in SoA aswell. I know Soulfelin will romance you if you are male and I belive Nathaniel too. However...incest is something i hate the most sorry as a sister and brother or brother with brother sorry is just not the same thing and it is ...pfff...incest...no no. Chloe and Nathaniel ? Where? lol

 

What it comes down to is... is it really incest?

-Hell Yes: They were likely raised as brother and sister by Gorion, and do have the same father, abeit divine. This is arguably the easiest answer to come by, since they are pretty much displayed as having a brother-sister relationship by the game. (Then again, the mod may change some of that for all I know.)

-Yes, *But*...: Gods do this stuff all the time. You're half-divine, she's half-divine, let's keep the bloodline of Bhaal pure.

-Who Cares?: Evil PC, just f***ing her for the pleasure, maybe with a lovey-dovey front if she doesn't like bad boys. Might even kill her for becoming a liability if she got pregnant. (Not sure if this would work since I'm not familiar with the mod's content.) Requires differing levels of RPing skills depending on how you feel about it.

-No: The primary reason for the incest prohibition (and subsequent brainwashing, not that I'd call it a bad thing in this instance) is the increased likelyhood of genetic diseases due to shared genes. What DNA does a god pass on? Any, even, considering that you can have full-blooded elves, humans, gnomes, dwarves, halflings, dragons, fire giants, etc.?
The secondary reason would be the familial feeling. As the Greek would put it, philia rather than eros. This one requires a bit of tinkering, to look at all the stuff that Imoen does as that of a love-struck girl rather than an adoring sister. This would likely be the hardest to pull off.

In the end it comes down to how much (and what kind of) rationalizing you're willing to do to experience a mod's content. Some people think Imoen looks hot, odd as it may seem to you or me, and not actually being her sister in reality...well, that's their choice to pursue with this mod. Personally, I have a hard time getting past thinking of her as a sister, but I'm willing to try at some point to see what the mod's like (if I ever do manage to get back to BG2).

 

Think about Scarface's weird relationship with his sister and you can get another option for a bad guy: protective and possessive with a mean streak to it.

There is something to be said about the divine thing. It makes sense. But as Fel pointed out, Imoen and Charname were raised together.

 

that is pretty much my thoughts as well, she is like a sister to charname.

but i might try the mod eventually to see what its like.

 

I know it's a little off topic and I'm a little behind but this statement is actually wrong.

there are a lot of values in the games we're basing this stuff off of that is not a modern concept in the least nor necessarily a modern day value. The Ages lived up to aren't quite necessarily modern either considering there is more and more proof that cultures such as Ancient Egypt had medicine that rivals modern day medicine in some ways and a higher quality of life than generally contributed to the times.

Combine that with the fact that some things are almost outside of nature such as several of the races living for 3 to 4 times the longest human life time in the modern age if not more as well as by modern concepts outdated or outright fantasy concepts of things like magic helping to heal, something supported if you really look into the nature of ancient herbalism and hearth lore which was labeled by more than a few modern concepts as Magic instead of some kind of scientific ability.

There is no choice but to view the entire issue as an amalgamation made up of lots of concepts and ages for the games are younger. The human starting age if you decide by dice roll is 15 to 19. By the games ideas and concepts that means a 15 year old is entirely an adult and more than capable of making adult choices. That includes things like marriage. So a 15 year old Paladin that if we actually look at things is interested in a PC that doesn't actually have to be any more than say about 3 years older than her. 21 is an age we picked and felt suited the PC afterall but given that BG1 is only about a years worth of events(if we go by some of the average game days not counting certain speed plays) and the PC is only like 17-19 starting that out(if not a little younger). Even adding on the several months discussed in the BGII prologue it means that the age difference between the PC and Saerileth is in affect miniscule. Even downright acceptable and the only complaint is her young age. Something that is overlooked more often than anyone pushing the issue will ever care to admit when it comes to real life and two young people fall in love as what we see as under the legal limit and then age and mature to above it.

Then again also in this argument we play favorites. you take Aerie's roughly 100 to 110 years of age and if you crunch the math and read the stuff on elven developement and what not. Aerie turns out to be basically the same age developement wise as Saerileth is for being a human. Yet nobody complains or calls the relationship sick because she is equivilantly the same thing in her own society. Barely a mature legal adult by her own societies standards and underaged by our own moral and societal grand standing.


now for some on topic discussion. I think the family environment of raising the two not only by Gorion but by certain other figures of Candlekeep such as Winthorp or the two old wizard/librarians you can talk to on your return to candlekeep that have like 50 stories of at least the PC growing up in candlekeep. This would have a lot more weight to how they would treat each other and a brother/sister bond between the two reguardless of blood.

Yes people can argue genetics but unless your related to a god and inherit certain powers or Your calculating whether a half elf counts as a half elf genetics just does not play a real part in the game. This is an issue that causes this particular argument enough problems without even go into further mechanics that are always brought up.

of course you can all take my words with a grain of salt because afterall. I'm a cruel heartless person that unless i have some reason I leave Imoen rotting in SpellHold for eternity.

[ April 05, 2007, 19:54: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

What does any of that have to do with societal values? My point was that the Faerunian cultural view of things like homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and gender equality are in step with the modern day world....not with dark age views on such things. Given that Faerunian values have more in common with modern day values in every other conceivable area, the idea that Faerunian society would make an exception for incest is silly.

I also made mention to the difference in human life expectancy because it is also in step with the modern life expectancy rather than the life expectancy in the dark ages. This is particularly relevant since most people on faerun would have to save up for 10 years just to receive a cure light wounds spell....so, for most people, magic has nothing to do with how long their lives will be (unless, of course, we are talking about magic being used to end it).

 

Actually several ancient societies had better views on Homosexuality than the so called modern world. Homosexuality wouldn't be such a hot button political and moral issue if we were accepting of it as some of them were. Faerun only perhaps doing better because there is no stance on it but what we decide to force onto the game. That's not what the game was meant to be about.

And by the version of the game we're playing here. No, Most people do not have to spend years saving up for a few cure light wounds. Prices were actually rather reasonable for many things. With lots of everyday items costing a few copper to a few silver. Easy enough for all but the most poverty stricken families to be able to spend when they really need to. Your also missing the fact that there is a whole alignment which equates to 1/3 of the priests in the game that can be rather charitable. Sparing heals and other things for those that cannot afford it.

The Actual life expectancy in the game is actually much lower than the actual possible age. Your staring at a few numbers and attributing them to everybody. But we're talking about a world that is at least as violent of our own. Between Adventurers, the evil doer's, wars and certain other issues. the life expectancy of your average human is probably no more than that of the Dark Ages.

 

wow that is a lot of reading.

good too learn about all that though

 

I know that, but what is your point? Faerunian values fall in line with modern, western sensibilities, were developed by someone with modern, western sensibilities, for an audience with modern, western sensibilities......and you want to argue that they were derived from some unnamed other culture that just so happens to have had the same cultural sensibilities that we more or less have now? Come on. Ed Greenwood was an author, not a historian. Our modern, western cultural values were placed in Faerun lock, stock and barrel.

BG2 is a video game and is by no means cannon. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, most people are commoners; adventurers are extraordinarily rare. Priests that can actually cast spells at all are also the exception, not the rule, so there really aren't enough priests/druids/bards running around to heal everyone who needs it. According to the rule books, most commoners don't even make the money necessary to buy healing from a priest in a year, so saving up to actually buy healing is going to take a very long time since a family also needs to use that money for food, clothing, and shelter.

You are missing what I'm actually talking about. In the D&D players handbook and the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, the amount of time before a human dies of natural causes matches our modern day life expectancy. I'm not talking about murder or famine, here.

 

Heh, you could almost think that his mod was made only to cause as much controversy and debate as possible

 

Considering that they never finished it (no ToB content AFAIK), I wouldn't be surprised.

 

its a possiblility.


EDIT....
from the Aerie Romance after the child is born.

Imoen: “Oh... he's so precious. Hey, since <CHARNAME> and I are brother and sister, I guess this makes me an aunt!”

[ April 07, 2007, 23:28: Message edited by: Elfen Lied ]