Ireland

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I haven't said anything about Smelly Gibson. I would never drop the name of that Australian weirdo.

But getting back to topic. Religion has nothing to do with this conflict. A protestant is presumably an anglo-irish. A catholic is presumably Irish. Given there once was gaelic (until it's sudden and astonishing fast disappearance in the mid of the 19th century), that means that they spoke a different language.

And the Irish demanded home-rule. And the British didn't want to give it to them. So the disagreements continued and continued.

http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/conflict/bttc2.shtm

Well, it was obviously a rather successful example of populating new acquired territory and getting rid of troublemakers.

[ July 26, 2003, 18:18: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

@Viking


I think it is more than obvious that no Irishman would have ever become anything else than catholic if Cromwell had never come to Ireland in the 1st place. Cromwell brought the anglican church. And Cromwell came to conquer. If the Brits never came if the 1st place and if they didn't impose their culture&rule&might, Ireland would be a Gaelic-speaking country.

 

@Malaqai You can't say that. For all you know, if the english didn't invade some other people might have. Ireland might have been german speaking instead of english.

 

Well for the sake of geography, it rather would be French.

 

1st of all, everybody here must understand why I am so defensive about Ireland. I live in Croatia, I am proud to call my self a Croat. And Croatia and Ireland share a common history. While Ireland was forced into Brittain, Croatia was forced into the Habsburg monarchy. And while Ireland was forced to forsake it's native language, Croatia was forced to forsake Croatian and adopt German. And while we now have our freedom, parts of Ireland do not. Because of imperial Brittain and London's lust for power.


I very much doubt that some Irish bloke living and working in northern Ireland back in Cromwell's day (the self-righteous LORD PROTECTOR's day) had nothing better to do and wanted to trouble himself by changing his religion, thus distancing himself from his native land and the people surrounding him.
The "new" religion was forced upon those people using blades--not words. Ireland is just an island-nation the tragedy of which is made larger by the fact that there are still people today who believe the common man of Belfast chose his faith using his own free will at exactly the same time Cromwell "started centuries of shame".

 

Speaking of shame, the fact that the Croats were familiar with the German language, appeared to come in quite handy, since so many of em volunteered for the Waffen SS.

 

This was true... centuries ago. But this has not been the fact for a long long time. Resently, as in the last 100 years, the new religion has been forced on them using a pen instead of a sword. The catholic ways were outlawed. But then, as I said before, all this has changed now. It is just the Irish people who keep them selves from freedom, not the British. Malaqai if you leanrt more about Irelands history you would know that it is the Irish them selves keeping Ireland divided.

Sorry, I meant Laches.

 

Exactly how do you think that Europe found Catholicism in the first place? We heard about it and WHAM! everyone started to believe it? It was forced upon people all around Europe by, you guessed it, the sword, and fires, and most other unpleasantness you could imagine.

Gaelic people were no more natural Catholics than anyone else. It was forced upon them.

 

The frequency with which that history repeated itself makes it hard for me to believe that Christianity has gotten any votes over in the "Most Persecuted Religion" poll.

 

Well, in fairness Christians didn't always have it easy in the early days and the days of the Romans -- Christians to the lions and all that. Then you have places that have cracked down on various religions including Christianity like China and the former USSR etc. Looked at over history I'd say Christianity may be up there but I agree that it's probably not the 'most persecuted.' Conversely, I've read but for the Roman emperor whose name I've lost in the foggy recesses of my mind much of the western world would practice stoicism rather than Christianity so, *shrug.

I'd also disagree with the atheist/agnostic persecution - can't begin to compare to the holocaust and what happened in the USSR.

EDIT - heh, I thought I was posting in the 'persecuted religion thread' - my bad.

 

I do not see too much similarities between Croatia and Ireland and their relationship to Austria-Hungaria and Greatbritain. Except both of the later are "unitied kingdoms". I don't see that Croatia was forced into the Habsburgian-monarchy, it was connected to Hungaria and Habsburg nearly 1000 years. And without the Habsburgian-Empire, I'd doubt Croats would still be catholics today. Instead of that, Ireland was forced into an Union with it's neighbouring Island in 1806. And even if in the second half of the 19th century Hungarians and Austrians tried to push their "nationality" through in their empire, I do not think, that there were prolonged independence wars in Croatia. Nor do I think that Austria or Hungary intervened after the dismanteling of the Empire in the affairs of former Yugoslavia..

At Laches, I guess (guessing) you mean Marcus Aurelius, because his the notorious stoicist emperor.

To christianity in general. Well protestants and catholics had some times, when they killed eachother at sight, so.... I guess that makes it pretty equal (balancing it out ???).

 

No, I think I meant Constantine and some of the later Roman emperors who were Christian and forced the conversion on others. I've heard that if they hadn't taken a hankering to Christianity most of the west would be stoic.

 

The population of Northern Ireland is insignificant when compared to the population of most of the world's cities, never mind countries. On a world scale Northern Ireland's problems are about as important as a pair of toddlers fighting over a toy. I'm surprised that this thread exists at all, when true oppression (were people are worried about having enough to eat, not about being able to buy a new car every three years) is too be found througout the world.

Religion is used in Northern Ireland as it has always been used, as a means of controlling large numbers of people. The Romans particularly liked the 'give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar' and the 'turn the other cheek' bits of Christianity.

By accident of birth and quirk of European history:

A person born into a Catholic family is a Nationalist that automatically wants the reunification of Ireland. From an early age he/she is taught by the clergy that Protestants are devious bigots that want to see him/her suffer for no reason. Let's call them Natholics (Nationalist/Catholic).
Common phrases;
Toichaigh Ar La - (pronounced Chucky Air La and meaning Our Day Will Come)
Burn the Queen


A person born into a Protestant family is a Unionist that automatically wants the Northern Ireland to remain a Protestant land for a Protestant people. From an early age he/she is taught by the clergy that Catholics are devious bigots that want to see him/her suffer for no reason. Let's call them Unistants (Unionist/Protestant).
Common phrases;
A Protestant Government for a Protestant people.
For God and Ulster (Excluding Donegal which is part of the Republic of Ireland).
Croppie lie down.
Burn the pope.
Never, never, never.
Not one inch.

You must chose a side, and that side must be the one to which the community which raises you belongs. Catholic-Unionists and Protestant-Nationalists are not unheard off, but these people that are guided by principles rather than happenstance are viewed as traitors and usually end up dead or exiled. This is especially so in the case in mixed marriages. Many couples leave Northern Ireland for England or the Republic of Ireland to escape attacks made by the homicidal bigots in their own communities.

During the Famine in Ireland many Catholics became Protestants so that they could get food in the Protestant soup kitchens. These people were known as Soupers, and this explains why many Catholics and Protestants share the same Surnames.

Now back to the topic:
The Bloody Sunday civil rights march was inspired by the non-violent Black civil rights marches that had taken place in America. The major civil rights abuses that had been prevalent at that time in Ireland have now been mostly done away with. This was done by making the local politicians responsible for nothing more important than ensuring that the bins are collected once a week.

The civil rights marches were not organised by the IRA. The IRA want the occupied six counties of Ireland to be governed by the republican Irish government because they believe that is what the majority of the people of Ireland, (North and South combined), want. They were prepared to attain that goal no matter what its cost is in innocent lives and personal property.

The civil rights demonstrators were ordinary people that simply wanted fair treatment regardless of who was in charge. They were a group made up of catholics and protestants that could see past the baseless bigotry and hatred that was making their lives a misery through no fault of their own.

The Civil Rights marches were 'off their time', and are no longer a part of life in the north of Ireland, just as they are no longer part of American life. That is not to say that Government sponsored discrimination has disappeared altogether, it is just that it is no worse than anywhere else. The Rodney King incident in America was analogous to the Catholic man that was beaten to death after closing time in Portadown, by a group of Protestant men, while armed police sat in their armour-plated Landrover a hundred yards away and refused to intervene.

What has changed between Bloody Sunday and now?

The allocation of low cost housing to low-income families and homeless individuals is now carried out by a virtually independent body called the Housing Executive. I say virtually because if a Housing Executive Officer refuses to follow one of a Coucillor's most humble requests, he may find that going about his work on Protestant/Catholic estate full of that Councillor's constituents is a very hazardous way of making a living.

Large government supported industries that would not employ Catholics in the Seventies, such as Harland and Wolff, (the shipyard that built the Titanic), have now lost all Government investment. The four thousand strong Unistant workforce has been reduced down to three hundred and fifty.

Government Utilities such as the Northern Ireland Electricity are subjected to a Unistant/Natholic head-count where a particular percentage to reflect the the approximately 40%/60% Unistant/Natholic population is looked for by the Fair Employment agency. They never get it, despite the number of Natholic cleaners and secretaries employed in menial posts, but at least they are looking, and it's the thought that counts.

The fact that Natholics do not have a normal police service may be seen as a result of the eighty plus years of conflict which left the police force more than 95% Unistant, but this Unistant biased force was allowed to become dangerous breeding ground for bigotry. The Patten Report outlined a procedure to redress this problem and the English Government is trying to implement the bits of it that the Unistant Community is not completely opposed to.

Parades by the sectarian Orange Order (Unistant) through Natholic housing estates (analogous to the Klu Klux Klan burning a cross on your front lawn) are now subject to the Approval of the a Parades Commision. The result of this is the trouble that you see on your TV screens now and then. It is just the members of this 'religious' organisation firing stones and fireworks at police when what used to be 'their Police Force' prevents them from getting their own way.

The police now fire plastic bullets at Unistant rioters as well as Natholic rioters, which is only fair.

All political prisoners have been released on license during the current peace process, which now means that hundreds of unemployed professional theives and murders are busy carving up the Protection Rackets, drug dealing and other organised crime syndicates between them. You may also see this on TV, as Unistant mob member kills Unistant mob member, and Natholic mob member kills Natholic mob member. It is of course possible to report criminals to the police, but once caught, a Unistant/Natholic mobster will become an informer for the cops and will be released again a few hours later, and they will be out for revenge.

Integrated schools for that educate all creeds together are springing up throughout Northern Ireland during the current truce. Hopefully the will not disappear when hostilities resume.


Bloody Sunday and the Troubles (Guerilla War)

The Bloody Sunday civil rights march was not orchastrated by the IRA, but it caused hundreds of new volunteers to sign up.

The IRA killed people and the English Government didn't flinch. More people died in road accidents in Northern Ireland than were killed by the IRA/UDA/PIRA/UFF.

The IRA blew up shops and government buildings and the English Government didn't flinch. Northern Ireland generated more than enough revenue to replace a few buildings.

The IRA blew up buildings in London's financial district and the English Government flinched. It didn't mind about the buildings. It was far more concerned about the millions of pounds worth of financial information on computer systems that was lost. Companies had known about putting backups of their data in fireproof cabinets, but nobody had said anything about bombproofing it. Even when the data survived, it took months to relocate the businesses, and the world did not wait while London brought itself back up to speed. If you lose the ability to monitor and control the ebb and flow of traded shares, then millions of electronic pounds, dollars and yen can suddenly evaporate behind your back as your stock crashes. The potential losses for England if more techo-targeted bombs were placed in london far exceeded the revenues it received from Northern Ireland.

The English government needed to stall for time while it set up a secure infrastructure to negate this new threat, and the current Peace Process was born. The English Government has hinted that it will allow Irish reunification once the majority of the people of Northern Ireland vote for it. This is of course nonsense. While Northern Ireland continues to make a profit for the English, they will kill to keep control of it, just like they did with the Falklands. All Labour's conciliary words and promises can be taken back simply by electing a Conservative Prime Minister.

Scotland and Wales have the same problem. When the Conservative Prime Minister Margret Thatcher's 'steal from the poor to give to the rich' schemes put the English government in financial difficulty, she cut almost all investment in Scotland and Wales to protect the Motherland. As a result Scotland dissowned the Conservative party. The current poverty in Wales means that it is easy for the English to out-bid the Welsh when buying houses there, which they use as holiday homes, and which the Welsh then use as bonfires.

Devolution is the new buzz word in colony politics. Many hope that it is the first step for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to rid themselves of English interference in their future. It is of course all a sham. Instead of just making sure that the bins are collected the politicians also get to pick what colour the new plastic wheely bins are. While the toddlers fight over a toy, their big sister empties their piggy banks.

What I'm trying to say is that the Irish do not hate the Scottish. (Eastern Ulster and Western Scotland formed a feudal Kingdom long before the four provinces of Ireland were united, we have more in common with them than any other country). The Irish do not hate the Welsh, we respect their commitment to their native language and have tried to copy their cultural commitment. The Irish do not hate the English as individual people, but we do hate what they have done to Ireland as a nation and what they intend to continue doing to Ireland for their own financial ends.

I use the description Irish in the last paragraph with confidence. Unistants know that logically, a man born in Ireland is an Irish man. Yet, to stand up amongst their fellow Unistants and say 'I am proud to be an Irish man' goes against the years of cultural dogma that they have been fed with. They say that they are British because saying that you are Northern Irish sounds every bit as ridiculous as it really is. Wales is a country, Scotland is a country, Northern Ireland is an address.

All that the word British means is 'English Subject'. Our taxes go to pay for a Queen that is famous for insider trading, her foppish son who is too dopey to be made King, and a gaggle of princesses who will do it with their tiara on if you have a couple of million in the bank. The only popular member of the royal family, Diana, basically told them to get lost before she died (or was assassinated depending on your level of paranoia).

The movie 'Train Spotting' had something in it along the lines of 'how pathetic are we (the Scottish) being subdugated by the English.

Staying with movies, since that is what started the thread, there is a line by the Irish man in Braveheart which goes something like 'Will I get to kill English men? I'm in the right place then.' This movie did wonders for the support of the Scottish National Party and Devolution. The story may have been fictionalised, but its impact was real enough.

There is another movie, Micheal Collins (1996) starring Liam Neeson and Julia Roberts, that tells the story of the 1920s fight for Irish independence (also fictionalised). Its not spectacular, but it's worth a look.

Another favorite of mine is The Messenger: Story Of Joan Of Arc (1999) with Milla Jovovich, which is along the same lines, driving the English back into the sea. It has great medieval battle scenes.

Removing England from Northern Ireland's affairs may seem like a good idea, but right now if Ireland is reunified, then the place will be run by a shower of corrupt politicians from the Republic who aren't above taking bribes and swindling landowners out of fortunes of money by manipulating the system for zoning building land. The only way for a person to profit from a change in government will be if they are a a politician or lawyer and they 'work' the system themselves. That is why 30% of the Natholics aren't even bothered enough about who rules them to vote on polling day.


If I can misquote Braveheart again,
'I'm not going to fight so that Lords can have more power. I'm going home.'

P.S. Ireland is a nice place to live.
The North is can be described as an uptight Police State, where people mind their own business, but it is still very safe due to the high security presence.

The South is very laid back and easy going. Dublin is rife with pickpockets, drug dealers and rogues, but that is the price they pay for their 'live and let live' philosophy.

North or South, nobody goes hungry. For this reason, hundreds of refugees from truly oppressed countries come to Ireland every year. The arrival of thousands of refugees into Ireland is likely to have an impact on the political landscape of Northern Ireland. If you think that Unistants give Natholics a hard time you should see what they do to Indians, Chinese, and Pakistanis.

 

And then you write over 2000 words about the topic

 

That's most interesting. I never heard that or any similar interpretation of planting a bomb in London's financial district.

In this case, instead of killing sensless people, just harass a center of financial activity, and there will be something going on.

I think the same logic is applied, when there are assaults in Egypt, Bali and Spain concentrating on tourists, which generate a lot of revenue in this regions, and therefore focusing on tourists seriously hurts the goverments there.

 

@Yago
When a man and a woman get into wedlock, isn't there a right on either side to call for divorce when things become not so good as they were?

I think it more than obvious that we Croats joined the Habsburgs when wars called for it (the official year of Croatias entry into the Habsburg monarchy is 1527, at the hight of the wars with the Turks). But in the 19th century when Croatia wanted to back out, unite all of the country and enjoy freedom we were opressed for a century, mainly because Vienna forced german into schools, offices and the like.

About Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia shattered a cry of freedom echoed on the winds of change--> but the change never would have come if it weren't for Genscher, a German politician who supported Croatia's freedom from day 1.

"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony..."

About Ireland. Ireland is a country that will continue to be exploited until the moment that a young, educated Irish politician says in a harsh manner "go away and fu*k yourself" to the English. The voices of small people are drowned in the noise emenating from the House of Lords and the like. I wish to Christ Ireland would be free soon. At least I know there would be a large guinness party in the irish pub I frequent.

 

Concerning that Prussia was the Arch-nemesis of Austria, and that Austria lost many wars versus them, including the one which let to the existence of Germany, I don't see the irony of fate, because the only link between Austria and Germany is the language and an intellectually challenged English guy on the empirial-throne. And a short period in time, which the Austrians try to forget, not unlike nearly the whole of Europe. (Uh, and the Austrian with a moustache.)

To the second part. I guess a fast-transition of Northern-Ireland into the republic of Ireland would lead to a bombing-campaign of ulster-nationalists.

 

Laches, that's quite immature. Movies tend to present a biased perspective not often based on information, and that's a silly way to justify an opinion - especially an opinion like genocide.

BTW I like Guiness too, but my beer preferences don't really come into contact with my more serious opinions!

 

About Prussia and Austria. In my life I have met quite a few men and women from Vienna (Wien). A huge number of 'em thinks of themselves as Germans. This is left over from WW2: "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer".
Another point on Prussia----isn't it true that the Habsburgh monarch (who resided in Vienna)wore (up to a point) the crown of the Holy Roman Empire, giving him rule over most of present day Germany. My opinion is that Austria and Germany (Deutschland und Osterreich) are one nation really.

 

I didn't say that. Iirc, that title disappeared for good around 1800. I was referring to the various state-federations, where Austria and Prussia were trying to bully eachother out. A competition which ended decively with the Austro-Prussian war of 1866. And then of course earlier times, a presbyterian kingdom isn't supposed to get along well with a catholic kingdom, is it ? And that intellecutal-challenged emperor came out of a marriage which was supposed to strenghten the century old alliance with the UK. Bismarck didn't want no alliance with the Austrians, he just didn't want the to get mad at the Germans.

Actually, a lot of them refere about themselves as "Aryans", what most Germans never would do. But that does not change the fact, that the get reguarly furious, when Germans claim Austrians as Germans. (Like right now, they're on a crusade, which propably gets completly ignored in Germany. Yeah, size matters). Nor that they have a tendency, like a big part of Europe, to point the finger on the Germans, when it's about....

Well it's nice, that you do not include the Flamish, Dutch and Swiss ("the huge variation, compared to the now existing Germany, the "small" variation. They are known to get very angry at suggestions like that. I am not so sure about South-Tirol. I guess some in South-Tirol wouldn't mind being part of Austria, but the Italians propably ... not. Vice Verca, a lot of people do still consider Croatians and Serbs as one Yugoslav people and their language as Serbo-Croat.

Edit: And by the way, it just occured to me. The Irish speak English, right ? Their English !

[ August 10, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: Yago ]