Irritating fantasy

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who was Martin's little Princess way off in the far east who's brother "sold" her to some Khan?

Can't think of her name off hand, but did anyone else find detailed sexual encounters a 14 year girl had to be rather disturbing?

I'm aware that in the 15th and 16th century in Europe that average noble girl was married between 12 and 14 and that the Catholic Church allowed for marriage as soon as the girl had her first "flowering". Martin's stories are generally more medieval then other fantasy stories, but I really could have done without some of the sexual encounters that girl had.

 

It's fine to dislike Martin because of the sexual content. I can understand that. That is a tangible feature of his books.

Hobb is the master of the one character. Martin is the master of the couple of dozen (plus a zillion hangers-on). Erikson is the master of the 100 characters. Each different. Each great.

Enagonios - nice comparison between Fitz and the Starks, especially Jon Snow. Snow gets stuck between a rock and a hard place where he cannot make easy decisions, just like Fitz. He also sacrifices much for duty. And he also has a wolf for a best friend. I wonder if anyone has ever seen them together in the same place? Maybe they are the same person!

EDIT: Hey! He's also the bastard son of royalty!

 

Well I suppose fantasy does draw a pretty big high school and middle school audience, putting in sex scenes with younger girls is without a doubt interesting to them.

I try to keep a naturalistic sexual moral code, but it seems I've failed terribly, choosing a Late Hellenic one instead.

I loved Martin's storyline (I actually pillaged the idea of an exiled prince for a story of mine from the prince who gets killed in the first book I believe, my prince of course didn't get killed, instead staying alive to ruin the lives of those around him), his storyline was darker and less superfical then most of the other pop fantasy writers I've read. I prefer magic heavy worlds with obviously evil "NPCs" in the froms of lichs, demon princes, black dragons, etc... as "bosses" because I like metamoral debates, but Martin made an almost entirely world quite enjoyable.

The sex really did turn me off, my late Hellenic moral code doesn't allow me to indentify with characters who engage in "base activities" (even if I may roleplay them). I really liked the plot, but never read the third book (clash of swords right?) because I had so many issues with the base nature of so many of the characters (the actual sexual deviance almost came to seem common place in the book).

 

Er, I don't think Martin threw in the sex just for kicks and to attract young (though I don't see how age has anything to do with this, really...) people - it's a pretty major plot point that reflects the world and culture it's set in.

 

I think I've been mis-interpreted so I'll try again as I was not comparing Hobbs and Martin.

1. IMHO I find that I don't care about Martin's characters, I've never read far enough to notice any sex scenes perhaps they might have held my interest; because nothing else did. The plot didn't hold my attention, the charcaters didn't interest me (whether they were good, evil or indifferent); the book just didn't put out a welcome mat for me and say welcome to my world, sit back and enjoy the ride.

2. I used Robin Hobb's the Farseer trilogy as an example of where the welcome mat became well worn as I stepped in and out of that world she created. I used her as an example because almost everybody here seems to have read her, and it makes sense giving a reference that most people can relate to. I could have spoken about Zelazny, Vance, Farmer, Sturgeon, Le Guin, Wolfe, Green etc etc, whose charcters and worlds drag me in; but felt that some people would not know what I was talking about.

3. I don't do comparisons of books unless they're by the same author, it is unfair to compare one author's writing to another's unless they are writing the same story IMO.

4. It is good that we have differences like this after all if we all liked the same books wouldn't it be a boring world. As an example I like reading Louise Cooper a british writer who I met once at a signing; but apart from the people I met there I don't know anyone who has read her books or liked them sad really IMO.

 

Fantasy that plays too heavily on stereotypes makes me grit my hteeth and go aklso, fantasy (or any fiction) that is improperly researched - the laws of physics and a lot of other stuff don't stop applying just because it is fantasy.

 

I completely agree with you. It's unrealistic to have all these modern day left wing ideals as commonplace in a medieval setting.

Also, I'd love to read some of your stories, they sound refreshing. David Gemmell is very much like you, in that all his heroes have their dark sides

 

I could try to put an "excerpt" in Creativity Surge, just as soon as I get access to my other computer which has the stories I've written. I have at least one story that has been edited enough to not feel completely raw.

 

*Cliffhangers to create suspense and drama, but which only serve to irritate because you're going to skip forward to the necessary chapter, and then get back to the boring chapter later anyway.

*Use of magic and/or similar things to create impossible scenarios. This totally kills the atmosphere and immersive quality of a book IMO...as someone mentioned earlier, Jordan resurrecting Forsaken is an example of this.

*Different points of view which are supposed to give you insights into different characters...but just cause unnecessary irritation to the reader because of how completely UNNECESSARY they are!! If anyone's read Robert Jordan...they'll know what I'm talking about.

 

R.A Salvatore again. Some of his characters have stupidly comical names. Is he trying to be slapstick or not? I can never figure it out, but I wish he would!

 

What really irritates me are trilogies that don'ty deliver. Best way to explain is to give an example. The riftwar trilogy by Feist, one of the best I ever read. So then came the Serpent war... It started well, and I thought great, typical Feist excelence. But oh no! By the third book he just did a crappy end to it! A character waved his hands and everything as ok. I just hate that build up and then wimping out.

 

I did kind of like some of the books by weis/hickman, but they are so slow to read through.

I dislike most of the books that try to elaborate too much, and find explaining useless details more important then creating an athmosphere that will really suck the reader in the book, so to speak.

 

It irritates me that the wheel of time serie will not finish in my lifetime (I am 34) episode eleven, it is really gettin out of hand.

I like Wheel of Time, really I do, but 3 or 4 books got to be the maximum. It is not possible to keep buying books in one serie. (Public Library I know)

second I hate appendixes to keep track of the names and other things. If you need an appendix to keep track, you lost control. I do not want to know what the second son of the king 400 years ago was called.

Third, bad maps.

 

The Brothers Bouldershoulder.

I hate them! I HATE THEM!

What is it with Salvatore and his need to throw some rediculously ****e comedy into his stories? In every book I've read featuring these two cliché Laurel & Hardy-type slapstick retards, they've served only the cheapen the book as a whole. Pikel is a complete moron, not funny in the least, and I find myself wanting to torture him, slowly, amidst a burning forest. Ivan would be a good character on his own, but his fall-guy persona is stupid.

Give me a reason not to give up on Salvatore, because although I enjoyed the Dark Elf Trilogy, all these other books are putting me off purely because of their idiocy. Names like Dagnabbit, etc... are just lame.

[ May 22, 2006, 00:35: Message edited by: Sir Farivald ]

 

Um ... their pretty good if you're a masochist who enjoys throwing away money...

But they pretty much die quality-wise after Dark Elf...

 

Salvatore is fantasy for 6th graders...George RR Martin on the other hand...o.O

 

Unbeatable characters (read: Pug, Rand, Rahl...) who on the last page of the book snap their fingers and make everything ok. I'd rather have many superpowerful characters (like Erikson), or none (like Martin & Hobb).