Is a Kensai any good?

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@Faraaz, granted its been a long time since I played my bard through but I don't remember him having nearly that many sixth level spells. Any way, I thought you could only use mislead once without cheese (though I never used it, I don't know why). Besides that all takes so much time, you'd have to be casting pro. magic weapons constantly wasting yet more 6th level slots. And don't forget that normal weapons, which any tactics player will carry around, will render that spell practically useless. And the kensai bonus to damage increases every 3 levels so by end game its about +13 without strength bonuses. Regular fighters have plenty of strategies against opponents (just ask thetruth) but kensai are admittedly more cut and dry.

"A well played solo bard would annihilate a kensai as soon as he saw him... "

More like, a well played solo bard would annihilate a kensai about five minutes after he saw him.

PS: 60-70 points damage on regular hits? With a bard? You're really going to have to back that statement up before I can believe it. And how many attacks are you thinking that you'll get a round? The way you describe it I count four, which is pretty mediocre considering all the buffs you need to get to that. And the spell description says that mislead images aren't able to do anything so singing bard songs would be out of the question. Unless of course its a glitch which wouldn't be that surprizing in this game.

[ June 26, 2006, 21:27: Message edited by: gatsbygoon ]

 

@gatsbygoon: I don't blame you for having that sort of reaction to my admittedly extravagant portrayal of the Bard. Have you had a read of Scythesong's Blade Guide?? Perhaps that will explain some of the doubts you might have in far greater detail than I can in this post.

However, as for the damage per hit, lets have a breakdown of that shall we?

Staff of the Ram +6 - 14-22 (base)
Strength of 24 - +7
Tenser's Transformation - +2
Gloves of Weapon Specialisation (1/2 attack and +2 to dmg) - +2
Improved Bard Song (x4) - +16 to damage

TOTAL: 41-49 dmg per hit

1.5 attacks per round...3 attacks with Improved Haste.

Total damage output: 41-49 * 3 = 123-147 dmg per round.

Also note, that he will have a maxed out AC of -24 with -16 from Improved Bard Song, base AC 1 from Spirit Armor...also possible to get another +7 from Blur and Improved Invisibility but non-issue as the game won't let you go down that far.

Admittedly, because its 2 am here and I was getting carried away, the numbers I posted for the damage were a bit over the top...but still I stand by what I said. A solo bard can outperform a Kensai any day!

Also...no, the bard will not need to survive for 5 minutes because he can use Spell Sequencer scrolls to have an extra use of Protection from Magic Weapons, Spell Trigger Scrolls for Mislead triggers, Chain Contingency scrolls, Simulacra etc etc etc...the point here is that it is possible for our solo bard to have 5 Mislead images at the cost of convenience for a flat 20 bonus to dmg...adjust damage values accordingly...

And this is not taking into account Mirror Image, Stoneskin, bonus hitpoints from Tensor's Transformation, ability to use maxed out Remove Magic, Greater Malison and other spells such as Slow, Spook, Glitterdust etc.

Is that sufficient or do I need to convince you further??

PS: Last time I checked, Bards get Spike Traps and Time Traps...its cheesy, but perfectly legal if the Bard knew what was coming before hand. He would be able to wail on the Kensai fully buffed and get him down to Nearly Dead by the end of the round I am thinking...whats the max hp a dwarven Kensai with 20 CON from BG1 can have in end game BG2 anyway??

Oh and if you think it "takes too long"...you are just not cut out to play a Bard my friend.

 

Ok, I'll buy that but you still haven't explained how you're getting those bonuses from Mislead images. Is it a glitch or what because they aren't supposed to be able to do anything.

Edit: nevermind

 

@gatsbygoon: You STILL haven't read Scythesong's Guide!!

Hehe..just kidding. Okay, how it works is that Mislead images cannot take any active actions such as casting spells or attacking or using items. However, Bard Song is NOT an active action and therefore, the image can just stand around singing. I imagine this could be done with a Mage/Thief or a Cleric/Mage for Detecting Traps and Turning Undead as well...although I have never personally tried it.

Note however, that these bonuses stack. I don't think this is a bug as the patches and the Baldurdash fixpack have BOTH not fixed it...nor does Tactics or any other mod for that matter, which I feel shows that it is a perfectly legal tactic. And I have no qualms in abusing this as this IS a question of the utmost power of each respective class!

After looking at the features the Bard gets and the Kensai...I find that +15 to damage not THAT big a deal...especially when the vanilla bard is always put down as being a not so good class! Well..that IS true if you can use a Blade!!

40-50 dmg with Offensive Spin, Defensive Spin, 10 attacks per round at maxed out THAC0 for 20 rounds, PLUS maxed out AC and melee buffs to guarantee untouchability for a long, long time!

You really really should read that link I posted earlier!!

 

I read it (note edit). Now I'm curious as to how you get 10 attacks a round when two posts ago you were saying 3? Other than that I like everything you just said. I was always a fan of the bard, he was the first class I played through the whole series with. but I never used him as my primary fighter. I usually just ended up throwing greater malison type spells and then tossing out some disintegration and deathspells. I must admit, the idea of all those bonuses on my barbarian is very appealing.

 

I do believe this was about the kensai, not the bard or even kensai vs. bard.

Even at low levels, a kensai can be a great addition to a party. Mags is currently doing very well in my BoM party even as I'm waiting for level 13 to dual to thief.

 

Is 13 a good level to dual? I'm not sure how far I should take my kensai before I switch him over.

 

13 is the best level to dual for pure power. It may not be as fun, though, so I might suggest 9 instead for max hit points.

 

I'm at 12 right now, whats the advantage in holding on for that last level?

 

..thac0 improved by 1 and extra 1/2 attack per round.

 

I don't want to sound like a prude, but this thread is supposed to be about a SINGLE CLASSED Kensai. Not a dual classed one, and certainly not a Bard.

Since the problem seems to be resisting some spells, how would a Dwarven Kensai with Axes or Hammers (or both!) be? I just think a character like that, while definitely not "all powerful," would be quite fun to play.

 

I'm pretty sure a dwarven Kensai with the Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Faer would be pretty damn impressive.

 

Plus an extra "kai", if I'm not mistaken?

 

Something else to point out is that olimikrig's gnomish kensai, Yulp, was doing great even with the baggage of the "Misunderstood Personalities" that he had to drag with him.

If you're at 12, there's no reason not to wait until 13. The extra half-attack per round is more than worth a level (though perhaps not 4).

 

A kensai can be very destructive.
Dualwielding the axe of the unyielding with belm or kundane in the left hand gives 7 attacks/round (each with instant kill chance) while improved hasted, even without spending points in your off-hand weapon or dualwielding.

If you go single-handed you can easily switch to missile weapons like the dwarven thrower or throwing axes or daggers (7 APR).

 

Can a Kensai use ranged weapons at all? I was under the impression that you could not use any form of ranged weapon, be it the throwing axe or the shortbow.

 

They cannot use bow, crossbow or sling, but they can use throwing axes and throwng daggers.

 

@Felinoid and others: Yes, I am aware that this thread is about the Kensai and not a Kensai vs. Bard. However, I have made my statements to elucidate the fact that the Kensai is in fact a below average class and the vanilla Bard which is not often considered a class capable of melee to the extent a specialised fighter kit ( ) like the Kensai should be - can in fact be a better alternative which speaks volumes about the Kensai's narrow focus and poor performance...

Note that a Berserker or Wizardslayer has a lot of other advantages...so do most Paladin kits...its just that Kensai that loses out.

[ June 27, 2006, 19:25: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

A very effective (though unpopular) way would be to use the Kensai as an archer using ranged weapons.

This way he will not have any problems with his high AC.Also the good thing is that the STR bonus apply to throwing daggers/axes/hammers and along with the Kensai's bonuses he will be extremely effective as an archer.

And the best weapon for an archer-Kensai would be the dagger Firetooth (+1 ApR,elemental dmg and does the dmg of a Bastard sword).


PS: I agree with what Faraaz said.The Kensai has too many disadvantages.

 

@thetruth: You know...that isn't a half bad idea...

Can you imagine the havoc a Kensai can wreak with Firetooth and Grandmastery in Daggers?? Oh and what if he were to be dual-classed to thief?? Even MORE versatility with UAI and backstabs!!!! I am so going to try this out soon...

However, I find that higher enchantments on thrown weapons might be difficult to find. What are the good thrown weapons that can be found in the game?