Islam?

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And no one is arguing that they have a right to do that. They do, however, have a right to protest peacefully, and make their beliefs known in a free society. The real danger lies in judging all Muslims by the extremists.

 

... none of which has any impact on the fact that militant Islamic factions are a reality. You asked for the reason why Westerners are fearful of Islam.

 

The reality is that what you should really be fearing isn't Islam, but the culture that springs forth militant Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion. Militant Islam isn't a product of Islam, but a perversion of it.

 

Islam is what its adherents make of it, drew. Same as with all religions. All I know is that we have had Europeans killed in the name of Islam and no other faith. It will continue, until a certain point...

Not all Muslims are terrorist, but all these terrorists are/were Muslims. Therefore Islam means trouble, if only because of a few rotten apples. Trouble nonetheless. It is a religion that has brought us not peace but conflict and death.

 

Oh please. By those standards, every christian, jew, hindu, atheist, you name it, should also be regarded as a threat. Why? Because there are homocidal maniacs in all those groups, and murders and death threats comes from people of those groups every day. I suggest that you read up on the religion of Islam before making any more claims.

 

@Rally; no argument here. I actually wasn't talking about stuff like the cartoons per se, but the reason there's a significant number of militant Islamists in the first place.

In my view, militant Islam is a symptom, not an illness. Sure, it's a symptom that needs to be treated, but only as part of a larger plan of action. That plan involves no longer backing governments like the Saudis, engaging countries like Iran in constructive dialogue, and forming ties with the peaceful reform groups in the Islamic world, among other things.

Not that I'm naive enough to think there's a decent likelihood of any of that actually happening.

 

@Bahir

Another time. Meanwhile you go and check out the numbers of Europeans killed during the last couple of years in the name of Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Atheism or any religion one cares to name. Then ponder the death toll Islamic militants have inflicted here before jumping on me again. Confront your theory of Islam with reality.

Perchance you will find, in matters of violence, Islam must be compared unfavourably to other religions. And perhaps you will find that remarkable, given the relative social stability European nations provide.

 

Before 911, the worst terrorist attack the USA ever experienced was launched by a red blooded Christian named Tim McVeigh . Ironically, we all assumed the attacker was Muslim before we found evidence implicating him. Then there was that Harvard educated mathematician named Ted Kaczinski...

We always cry Islam when we see terrorism but, at least in the US, we've actually been subject to far more terror attacks by our own people and even our own government.

 

Northern Ireland. Thousands of people killed in the name of Christianity.

Iraq. George Bush and his self proclaimed support from God.

Eric Robert Rudolph, Clayton Waagner. The "Army of God". National Liberation Front of Tripura. Lord's Resistance Army.

The Balkan states (still involves religion at some level)


Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam.


Israel.

 

Bahir - the precondition was Europe and recent past. Like, the last five to fifteen years. You see, in particular the time in which tensions grew among Muslims and Europeans, which is rather against the overall trend. Oh well.

But I see where this is going, and no longer wish to stand in the way of forcebly turning the topic "Islam/Europe/violence" into something... unrelated.

Why are we even discussing Europe? The Alleys are all about the US.

 

Religion really had nothing to do with those wars. Yes, churches were damaged but that was done by individuals.

 

Woah... noticed this thread late.

@Nataraja, about Crusades? Yes they were a bad thing, but:

1) It was Christian holy land, too, remember a guy called Jesus?
2)I'm Finnish and we were farmers back then, sometimes under Russian/Swedish flag, but we're really the portrait of innocent, compared to most countries. No need to bomb us because were located in the western part of the world.
3)Don't generalise that all western people were Christian nutjobs. At that time, king and church controlled everything. Some/most of the people that did live in those countries were afraid of them and didn't have much to say about whether they would go to war or not. And the basic level of education at that time... there was none, how could they have known anything about what they were getting involved in, except the going to heaven part. In their knowledge, God controlled everything and He chose the king, of course they'll obey him.
Should we die because of some ancient bloodthirsty leaders?

That's actually how it should be, some people taking this religion stuff too seriously is the reason I'm an atheist. Religion is cool, but it shouldn't interfere with your daily lives. However, I do admire people who are so dedicated they become priests, monks etc.

 

Even scarier is that the majority of what we hear about Islam comes from this vocal and dangerous minority...

But what if they don't want this? What alternatives are there if they only seek out the erradication of infidels?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5377914.stm
http://www.harpers.org/PartiesOfGod.html

 

I think many folks here are way way off. It helps to try put oneself in an Islamist perspective, and Fabius Maximus has done that in a very good way, so I take the liberty of commenting on, editing, paraphrasing and quoting him to sum up his point on this.

To many foreigners American culture is a virulent and lethal virus, attacking at their most vulnerable point: their children. America acts like the Pied Piper, stealing away their young by offering a different vision of life’s highest values. To gays America sais to come out of the closet. To women America sais to throw off the shackles of male domination. To atheists, heretics, and agnostics America sais to glory in their independence of thought. To all America offers sexual freedom, liberation from the domination of their elders, and opportunities to obtain wealth in non-traditional ways.

Consider the difference between the roles of women in western states vs., for example, Saudi Arabia. Western women are full citizens: voting, owning property, choosing not just their husbands but even their sexual partners. Saudi women, although also full citizens and entitled to own property and businesses, must, for example, be escorted by a close male relative in order to travel abroad; they inherit at half the portion of their male siblings; and they find their testimony as worth only half that of any man.

Even more powerful than American ideology, her technology “defeats” biology by freeing gender from sex. Control of contraception for both men and women, especially women, is devastating for cultures based on highly differentiated gender roles – as is true of many cultures in the Middle East.

The impact of Western culture on Islam was clearly foreseen by Sayyid Qutb, Egyptian intellectual and Islamist (1906 – 1966) when studying in 1949 at the University of Northern Colorado at Greeley, Colorado. Qutb is one of the most quoted thinkers who provided guidance for Islamic radicals.

We should not expect the members, let alone the elites, of other societies to like the challenges we inadvertently force upon them. After all, most Americans despise some aspects of our culture. Nor will the elites of other lands obligingly and quietly die to ease their societies’ adoption of western ways, as did King Mongkut of Siam in the 1951 musical 'The King and I'.

Western culture, which America has refined to peak intensity, threatens other cultures. US cultural influence is globally omnipresent. That is a fact. And it isn't always welcome. You can see that in France, where the government has imposed a french music quota on the radio to counter the overwhelming dominance of english language music. Frenchmen shall speak french. And I have to admit that I truly welcomed the emergence of bands singing in German over the last couple of years.

In my view, just like Fabius Maximus', Islamic societies, like those of so many other societies, feel threatened by American culture. But the contrast – and therefore the danger – is greater for them than, for example, the French. Their need to respond is a result of the natural instinct for cultural self-preservation. Whether America’s cultural “aggression” is deliberate or inadvertent is not relevant to those defending against it. They will fight to death rather than submit.

America couples a for all practical purposes offensive cultural strategy with an equally offensive military strategy. Although labeled “defensive”, America maintains a chain of approximately 737 bases encircling the world plus a massive military force that intervenes in foreign lands every decade or so. America's actions speak louder than our words. Those not on friendly terms with the US might find this combination threatening.

As is so often the case in history, this conflict is structural. America will not change herelf to suit others. It’s America's culture and 'their' problem. As the pictures at page 1 suggest 'they', however, refuse to change as well.

[ March 24, 2007, 19:23: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

so when thousands of muslim men where killed in massacres by christians, just because they where muslims, religion had nothing to do with it?

yup, the muslim community could have chosen to ignore the drawings, make some fun drawings about danes, the cartoonists, the goverment, christianity (whoever they chose to blame), prostetet peacefully etc. instead they chose to demand the prime minister to shut the newspaper down, when that didn't happend paper containing lies to enrage muslims world wide was produced and they chose to go around the world to invoke hate and preach that the cartoonists should be killed

 

i really don't know what were Belgrade's motives behind those massacres, but today it's called ethnic cleansing. from my personal experience it had more to do with the fact that they were not Serbs and because of that every non-Serb on their path suffered

 

Just FYI, the essay Ragusa linked wasn't written by me.

That damn bastard just stole my nickname.

 

Here in the USA we do have cultures who walk their own path. The Amish are a prime example and so are Jehovah's Witnesses who live and blend in with society. (Yeah, I know they annoy some of you but that's another topic). The Hopis, also. Probably others I don't know about or have forgotten. Oh, Hasidic (sp?) Jews.

And further more the average 'American' doesn't go around seducing every female (or male) in sight, taking drugs, killing people. All they want is to live in peace, tend their own garden and get on with life.