Israel v Palestine, who is in the wrong, or at least more wrong

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Arafat has never wielded half again as much power over the Palestinians as the Israeli primeminister/president wield over the Israelis.
Arafat has never been able to stop suicide bombers and terrorist attacks completely. Hamas,Hizbollah and Ismalic Jihad has never been under his control so much of what Israel tend to demand of him is things he can not give.

This I find is incredible important and one of the main reasons it must be the Israelis that makes the first moves just because they can. It is not like one branch of the Israeli army has its own agenda and doesnt listen to Sharon, every atrocity the Israeli do are done in the name of all Israeli's as they have been ordered by a democratic elected government. No one has elected Hamas and Hizbollah to speak for the Palestinians, they may have alot of support but these are fringe groups. Extremists. Suicide bombings are the acts of lunatics belonging to an extreme group acting on their own while the Isreali army is an army belonging to a democratic society and which every act is an act by the entire Israeli people.

 

First of all,

I don't know where you got that. Check your facts before making statements like that.

Back to topic, IIRC Israel was artificially created after WWII. The Palestinians have a right to that land, even without the argument that Israel was ordered to relinquish the territory. They were dispossessed. If it's any people who should understand the Palestinians it should be the Israelites.

 

The real grudge between these two nationalities is that both want Jerusalem as their capital for their nation. They both have some right because the Jerusalem did serve as a capital for the Jewish nation until it was enslaved by the Romans and the Palaistinians have the same right because they are the descentants of a nation that was created by the crusaders and called the kingdom of Jerusalem. Nice eh; Another problem is that the Israel does not want (due to religious restrictions) live with other religions people. I know this is strange but don't forget that in Israel live the zealots of Jewism mostly. Also they really would love to have the whole region and that is what they are trying to achieve. The truth is that the Palaistinians are treated like animals and worse by the Israeli army and these suicide attacks you see (and this is a new phainomenon) are the outcome of this treatment. Are they justified; no, but they are desperate and rightfully angry. Did Israel's goverment really ever tried to reach a peacefull solution i don't think so because they want too much and they give too little. The Palaistinians on the other hand want too much in the exchange of almost nothing. Right now they have reach the point of no turning back (there is blood on the hands of both that cries out for revenge and they are willing to take revenge) and things can only get worse. As far as for Bible. i want to underline that this is not the whole story our religions (catholics, orthodox you name it) have taken out the pieces they didn't like, this goes for the gospels to. The problem is that the UN have a thirty years old decision stating that the Israel must withdraw from the Palaistinian territory but they are still have done nothing. So who is wrong in this case. For me Israel because it has the power to do something and it is using this power to do the wrong things.

 

What is so frustrating about the current situation is that peace was so close only 10 years ago.

I'm not suggesting that the Oslo accords (1993) were perfect and gave everything to everyone, but it contained a framework for a peaceful settlement of the key issues.

Unfortunately, for extremists on both sides this was not enough and they have subsequently derailed the process because they want it all.

To address the topic:

To start with the question of who's to blame is never going to get the process forward. Why, because it really doesn't matter who is to blame. It doesn't matter because looking backwards will never achieve anything in terms of a peace process. The only way to peace is to look forward without getting stuck in the past. Until they can do that, nothing will be achieved. The longer it is allowed to go on, the harder it will be, however, since positions only become more entrenched.

I dare say that one thing we will all agree on is that the current situation in Israel / Palestine is unsatisfactory in the extreme. It must be addressed from both sides, since at the moment everyone loses.

 

After I saw the map of the would-be palestinian state, I would not have agreed to the plan either. It was an impudence. A country which is divided in three parts and surrounded by Israel?No way. Arafat could not agree to that.

The Taba-Plans are another matter. They are sound. I don't know why Arafat did not take the chance.

 

Charlie, i fully agree with the second part of your post.

To the first part of your post:

Well, i got that from school -> history.

It's common heritage of the western world, so it's easy to find something on the net.

http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_query

Logically, those "ideas" are also found in the US.

There is also a famous play from Shakespeare, which deals with this issue: The Merchant of Venice.

I still think it is absolutely wrong to decide over the fate of millions of people, just because someone "believes" that "god" has given a specific land to a specific people, because that is "someone's" interpretation of the bible.

The conflict hat to be solved in a fair and rational manner, not in a delusional manner based on bible-interpretation.

[ March 31, 2003, 18:22: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

Does it matter who is wrong and who is right??

 

Yago,

You are correct. But I was referring to today, post-WWII even. Those statements made by the Catholic Church (I cannot speak for Protestant ones)were decades if not centuries ago when The Catholic Church exercised more power. But if you check official Catholic doctrine not just statements made by irresponsible Catholics and clergy, you will find that it's not the case. Jesus Christ was a Jew, the epitome of one. (Of course Jews may not agree with me. )

P.S. Shylock was a central character in The Merchant of Venice.

 

Ermm... Jesus was soooooo not Jew

 

What was he then, Christian?

 

Well, if you ever read the bible, you would have known that Jesus had big problems with Jewish traditions, like circumsisions..

He claimed that if it was necessary, God would make it so that it needn't be done...


IIRC, Jesus was a jezuit(sp?)

 

Charlie, I was just using the example of the past miss-deeds of the churches, to enforce my point, that conflicts in the 21-century have to be solved by rational means, not questionable belief-systems.

Yep, Shylok, i am Y(I)ago

But I agree, Jesus was born a jew. That's a fact that can't be twisted. It's even written in the bible. (Of course I wouldn't rely on one source only)

[ April 01, 2003, 11:52: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

Jesus had problems with Jewish law in that the scribes and pharisees (and other Jews as well)followed the letter of the law and not its spirit. They were hypocrites too, flaunting their 'holiness.' But Jesus didn't want to do away with the law. He observed it like any proper Jew would.

He wasn't Jesuit. The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola. He is the patron saint of my alma mater.

Did you name yourself from the character in Othello?

 

yep

But back to the topic. Israelis and Palestinians have to live peacefully on the same land together. They better start today, not tomorrow.

I think there has to be a huge political (not military) intervention, either by the U.S or the European Union, to make this happen. The sooner, the better.

And i'd prefer that the EU would take a leading role, not the US, to solve this conflict. Because frankly, I don't think the US is up to that task, because there's to much domestic quarrel inside the US concerning this conflict, which prevents the US goverment from taking a sober look at things.

On the other hand, the EU is still too weak, to play the role in world politics, which europe (according to the huge combined economic power of the european contries) should. So, I am rather pessimistic.

The situation now is just absurd. The EU tax-payer pays for investments in infrastructure (to further the peace process and make life saver for Israelis and Palestinans), while at the same time, the US tax-payer pays for military-equipment (to protect the Isreali citizens), which is used to destroy exact the european made investions . I don't think this is making the life of anyone safer or is a wise way to use goverment ressources.

Anyway, I stress it again, a solution concerning the fate of millions of people has to be based on reason, not on Bible or Koran interpretation.

And dammit, a state has to protect ALL his people, even if they are not Jewish or christian, but moslem.

[ April 01, 2003, 15:27: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

AFAIK the Koran only ever speaks of the Children of Israel in good terms referring to moral or spiritual lessons. It has nothing to say regarding modern day Israel nor Jews living there. Palestine or Israel (the country) is not even mentioned.

 

i have recently written an 800 word essay on the history of this whole topic. ill post it next time im at home. It is a bit opionised, but what can i say, im only human.

stay tuned for more info.