It has been two years, but I can’t stop wondering…

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Chandos wrote:

I've been too a little bit surprised about what I could read on this thread. It is true that Amsterdam was brought up at the beginning of the thread. But I don't see why this immediatly has to lead to country-bashing of the Netherlands.

I think this comment is completly misplaced and offensive. It's discraceful. While it's inner meaning is true, a fast moving army would chose the offshoot of the great plain to invade another country, I do not see any need to say it in this manner. In this war people were dying in great numbers and many other countries were invaded. The Dutch were forced to surrender by the threat of systematical carpet bombing of their cities, like it happened to Rotterdam.

It seems odd to me that someone from Pennsilvanya would chose to bash the Dutch. Not because the Pennsylvania-Durch (Germans), but becaue Pennsilvanya was settled among others by Dutch and was controlled by some time by New Amsterdam. And by the way, the Dutch fought a war of independence and created a Republic long before the Americans did. And the creation of the freedom bell had propably something to do, with the development of democratic thaught in the Netherlands. Yes it was an oligarchy at first, but so was the USA.

And it boilds down to this. In Europe, where so many countries and cultures exist, there is something strange about history. Neighbouring countries do not care for the national-mythology of others. The same applies to nations far away. In a European history books about the events of the US-revolution, you usually find that it mainly was about taxes, economical interest (get rid the British competition) and the different plans the British and the Americans had for the land of the Indians. And that a lot British at that times where puzzled by slaveholders crying freedom. Ironically, one of the European countries which supported the Americans was Prussia. One part, because of reason d'état and one part because the king of Prussia shared much of the visions and ideals of the revoluiton. Astonishing, isn't it ?¨

And when the Americans where so fundamentlly at odds with the UK, why did they precisly copy the goverment of the UK as it was in 18th century ? Only with two differences, a much stronger executive branch and a system they discovered by the Indians, federation. Did you know, that Switzerland 1848 copied the federation system from you, which was invented by the Indians and then adopted by the Americans ? Because the advantages of the federation-system where obvious.

Seemingly it always ends like this -> I do not agree there -> remember WW2 and our military effort and superiority -> But there were some other countries involved -> rember our altruism -> But there was some natinoal interest at stake too -> Remember our ethical superiority.

And then it comes down to some fundamental believes, which are deeply embeded by many but not shared by anyone. Democracy was neither invented in the USA nor brought first by the USA to Europe. It already existed in Europe and had a strong tradition in many European countries.

And I remember reading by James Madison, that it is of utmost importance, that the former colonies on the North-American continent form together one country. If not, it would be unavoidable, that they would fall prey to eachtother like it always happened on the European contninet. I'm under the impression, that he didn't that America was very different from the rest of the world for the sake of the differences of the people living there. It was just about seizing the beneficial circumstances.

No, do not believe, that I do not know some parts of American history and do not believe, that I don't appreciate some developments there. But do not think, that I agree with the assumption of American superiority in ethical and democratical matters. I am under the impression, that many Americans see their country as very special. I think every country is very special, but none is more special then others. America is just another country. Obviously, the seize of it makes to play in a whole different league than Switzerland, Norway or Portugal. It's in the league of China, India, Brazil, Russia and Indonesia. But in the end, it is just a country, not more, not less. No need to ridicule in an offensive manner smaller countries.

 

You guys need to relax...I was joking about the Panzers and Pennsylvania attacking Holland...Sheesh!

 

I know that I have overreacted and I know that Sir Belisarius made a sarcastic comment. And I shouldn't have posted what I've posted, which then obviously offended Chandos the Red.

But I think my assassment of most threads is right. It usally is kind of ping-pong game, by which the balls get harder and harder and it becomes a certain dynamic. One hand, the ping-pong game is fascinating and addicting, I guess it is the essence of forum-posting, but with certain topics, it usally plays more or less always out in the same way.

Edit: And I am one of ping-pongers in case my self.

[ September 12, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

I think you people are looking at this entirely too intellectually...

Imagine you are a child...two of the most massive buildings on Earth (MASSIVE) had two of the most massive flying hunks of metal (767) flown into the side of them and then EXPLODED! Then the two buildings fell down in what was probably the largest structural collapse in the history of the world making a dust cloud that reached for miles and miles. And here is the best part...IT WAS ALL CAUGHT ON TAPE! You can like...watch it happen.

Now I know what happened was a terrible thing...but still, the four year old in me went "COOL!"

Now I realize my inner child might be more vocal than your inner child...but still...I think that had a lot to do with this being the biggest story in years and years.