Lack of Divine Intervention

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I hope you aren't suggesting, Bassil, that I don't believe in God, or that I have no personal relationship with Him. Because it seems from your response that you haven't read a word I've said in the last 4 pages of this thread. Try doing a bit more research before being so judgemental, and see how it works out. Who knows - you might even like it.

edit: Romans, Chapter 1, verses 17-23:

How does that PROVE the existance of God? It sounds more like a threat to believe, rather than proof of anything to me.

[ April 14, 2006, 22:53: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

My post is not directed directly at you Death Rabbit and I mean no insult to any one. It seems to me that a lot of post regard religion as superstition and those that take the position that God is real have no intelligence and no real evedence that he exist. My point is that when most people are given the opportunity to study the scriptures without the preasure of believe and convert or dismiss as superstition they seem to gravitate to the spirital.At least that has been my observance. Most of the people I
have met dismiss the Bible because of the feeling of guilt or conviction. I felt this 0ften when I studied scripture. And the attitude of a lot of professed christians add to this feeling with their better than you attitude (which is undoubtedly the opinion you derived of me from my post )
But I soldiered past these things. Most people do a bad job of expessing thier faith thats why these things must be between you and God (hence the personal relationship part).All people have a relationship with God. What kind of relationship it is only you and God Know. Maybe it is like with your father, brother, ex-wife, the craze aunt you ignore, or just another passanger on a train whom you never acknowledged." 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." If you look at what is refeered to in this verse you will either see divinity or deny it. The fact that it is denied does not mean it is not there. the other verses are not threats. They simply state where the path of denial leads.
I am not a Chistian by the standards of chuchgoers but I do believe in the devine and life is my proof. The Bible is not a book of theats, superstition, or made up stories. It is a
complete work of Philosophy, Law, and yes, even science. The answer to everthing is there if we look hard enough.That is Divine Intervention, To me at least

 

NOG: The Book of Mormon does nto actually describe Hell itself, but does use the analogy of casting weeds into the fire. But the closest guess I have to what Hell is like comes from the testimony of Alma the Younger. In his childhood, he and some of his friends (sons of the local leader) rebelled against God and just did as they pleased. At some point, they were confronted by an angel of the Lord who basically told them that the teachings of their youth were all true. Basically he was hit with the guilt for all his sins. This lasted until he remembered that his father (a prophet of the Lord) had taught about Jesus Christ.

My impression of Hell would be living for eternity with that guilt and the pain that your sins caused to God and to others, and knowing that you have squandered any and all chance for forgiveness of your sins...

 

@Joacqin:
I have never said that you must believe it is true, just that you must admit it is possible, as many people on this board seem to refuse to. Next time, please read my post a little more carefully. It is the Spirit that leads you to believe, not me.

@Aldeth:
Yes, I meant 2.3*10^258 or something. That was my fault. I would be pretty suspicious of anyone doing base 2.3 math myself.
As for how this compares to NASA hopes, I don't know. The odds weren't that life would develope, either, but that an Earth-like planet would. This used various requirements like the existence of a sizable magnetic field around the planet, distance from an appropriate sun, distance from the core of the galaxy, odds of massive asteroid impact, not stuff that would be applicable to life on moons of Jupiter so much.
And even the billions of billons of stars in the universe probably wouldn't come near to 2.3*10^258th power. 1 bil.^2 = what, 10^18th power? The mass of the universe is not infinite. It may be VERY large, but it is restricted. There are a finite number of planets and stars in the universe.

@DR:
Sorry about the confusion.
You contend that declaring something a miricle because there is no known earthly explanation and the outcome of it is distinctly non-random , i.e. it save a christian ministry, is foolish? What would you concider valid criteria for declaring something a miricle?
A particular portion of the Red Sea could be parted to the bottom by low-hurricane force winds (sustainded) in the right direction. Of course this doesn't explain the ground being dry, but oh well.

Bassil:
Thanks for the support, but you have to understand that many of these people are staunch atheists (i.e. Drew I think). They will not be swayed by the words of the Bible, even though the whole universe cries out the divine majesty of God. They want proof. They want scientific, mathematical proof, a god-in-a-bottle type thing. I honestly pitty these people.

 

What must I admit is possible? Should I admit that every crazy harbrained religion is possible? I guess everything is possible, including myself being almighty and the god you worship. It just isnt very likely, as a matter of fact that the likelyhood is so small that it is as close to impossible as it can get and thus I would feel a hypocrite if starting to talk about what is possible. Especially since people like you draw some very far out conclusions by every "concession" made by rational people of what may be possible. I pity you and those like you who refuse to live in reality, who are too weak to live without the belief that there is a divine being holding your hand through the harsh reality that is life. The illusion may be comfortable but a lie is a lie and I pity people who refuse to open their eyes and minds to the universe.

 

Here we have the problem. You just called God, or god, or gods, or any concept of a supreme being of any kind a lie, meaning you have just dismissed the possibility, the very real possibility despite your claims of statistical improbability. You are no longer working on even a thin basis of fact, but on a religion called Atheism, which dismisses all ideas of god as foolish lies made up by weak minds. You are acting on the same kind of faith that you criticize us for having. You might as well say it is impossible, because you are a hypocrite either way.

 

It is possible that if I tell you that I have four arms I am telling the truth. The likelyhood is so small though that assuming anything else than that I am lying is foolish.

Atheism is not a religion, it is a lack of religion, I could perhaps go as far as saying that it is the "worship" of rationality.

Also in discussions like this there is no fact, cant be any fact, can only be rationality and common sense. Religious faith spits in the face of human rationality, intelligence and common sense and assumes we are all weakminded fools taken in by any fanciful tale spun by either lunatics or people who know how easy it is to take advantage of the ignorant and/or foolish.

 

If you define religion as a set of beliefs about a god, gods, and/or the supernatural, then atheism, which is the belief none of them are real, is a religion.
How can you defend this: "It just isnt very likely, as a matter of fact that the likelyhood is so small that it is as close to impossible as it can get..."
What likelyhood are you talking about? Are you talking real statistical data, or just your own wild fantasies?
And yes, there is fact, and can be fact. It distrubs me greatly that the one supposedly defending rationality is the one refusing to admit facts into the arguement. I'm asking for facts from you right now to defend your claim to the irrationality of religion.
Religion does not spit in the face of rationality. Christianity actually depends on it, believe it or not. When we are confronted with a new teaching, the first thing we are told to do is check it and see how it compares to the Bible. That is a rational analysis. I defy you to provide one example of how Christianity, the actual beliefs spelled out in the Bible, not some crazy Wako fanatic's teachings, are irrational. Oh, sorry, I forgot that facts can't exist in this kind of arguement.

 

NOG: He hasn't said it very nicely, but he has a point. There is actually more evidence of extraterrestrial life than there is of an omnipotent deity. Faith is not rational. Were it rational, we would call it fact or theory.....and terms like "leap of faith" wouldn't exist within the english lexicon.

 

I don't think you and I have the same meaning of rational. When I say rational I mean something that makes sense, that has evidence behind it, even if only personal experience. I think you are talking about a careful process of induction or deduction where steps are laid out and anyone can read it to see where you're coming from.
Faith is the belief in something even thought the evidence is not sufficient to support an avid belief. Many people believe in evolution, yet they have not seen sufficient evidence of it to come to the conclusion that it is right on its own merits.
The bit about evidence is only true because any omnipotent deity would have to be extraterrestrial and would probably be concidered life, therefore all (or at least the vast majority of) evidence for an omnipotent deity would be evidence of extraterrestrial life. This doesn't get him off the hook for supporting his claim.

 

Why dont you start with reading peoples post Noggie boy? I said that in discussions like *these*, meaning discussions about the life, the universe and everything. Discussions about unverifiable things there can be no fact. There can be opinions, more or less founded in reality.

As for an explanation about why I find a belief in a (caring especially) god to be wholly irrational I spelled it out earlier in either this topic or the other one we have discussed in. The one about the size, age and such of the universe and comparable utter insignificance of our planet and race in the grand scheme.

 

@Blackthorne:
I think that's actually called agnosticism-the 'I don't know/don't want to know/don't really care' position. Atheists specifically believe that the supernatural doesn't exist, that there is no God, or god, or gods, or anything. This is a religious belief.

@Joacqin:
I understood what you were saying, but I still disagree. There can be facts, there can be a rational discussion of facts, but that can't be the end of it. There have to be MORE than facts, but this does not excuse or negate the role of facts.
For example, the fact is that science has repeatedly shown itself to be wrong. The fact is that science is neither capable of, nor designed to, prove/disprove the existance of God.
You're bit about the infinitesimal existance of the human race totally misses the point that an infinitely powerful, eternal being who doesn't need to feed Himself has no reason NOT to tell Joe Shmoe in the tribe of Schmukatelly in one insignificant corner of the universe all about Him. In fact, I think I'd get pretty bored as God if I didn't. And what makes you so sure that humanity is so insignificant? Have you found alein life? There are a few possibilities here.
1.) Humans are the only sentient life in the universe, aside from the super-natural. I'd say that makes us pretty special.
2.) Humans are one of only a few sentient life forms in the universe aside from the super-natural. Still leaves us as pretty special.
3.) Humans are one of a multitude of sentient life forms in the universe aside from the super-natural. Here humans are only non-special if we are just like all the others and sentient life in and of iteself is nothing special.

I'd say that the odds of us not being special in any way are pretty low, but again it really doesn't matter because there's no reason for God NOT to talk to us. It isn't like He has a long-distance phone bill to pay or something.

 

Shorter Nog: The unfaithful are willfully ignorant and must be pittied.

All I'm asking for, Nog, is an explanation other than "God made it happen." That's it. It seems clear you can't provide one. Sorry, but you'll find as our species continues to progress that will become less and less a satisfactory answer to any of life's mysteries.

I've asked you this twice now, and I'll go for three because I think it's central to this entire thread: Were your friend a Catholic, Jew, or some other faith you find unacceptable, would his situation still be considered a miracle to you? Would your miraculous rain shield still be a miracle had it been centered around a mosque? How about a strip club? Was what happened to you only a miracle because it was a "christian ministry?"

@jaoquin

Petty namecalling and condescension is going to render this debate meaningless at best and get this thread closed at worst. Please grow up and knock it off. You can find Nog's beliefs abhorrant and still show respect at the same time.

 

@DR:
Well, I would still concider such a thing an act of super-natural power. I might concider it demonic, depending on which group got it (i.e. devil-worshipers, witches, etc.), but still supernatural.

An explanation for what? Why we don't all fly into space? Gravity pulls us to the center of the Earth. Gravity is a force that draws all mass to all other mass, dependant on masses and distance. Where did gravity come from? Well, God made it happen.
Why is the sun bright? The fusion of atomic nuclei in the extreme heat and pressure of the sun produces immense ammounts of energy, most of which are released in the form of electro-magnetic radiation of various frequencies. Some of those frequencies are ones we humans percieve as light. Why does the fusion of atomic nuclei release energy? Well, God made it happen.
Where did the universe come from? I don't know, but guess what? Somehow or another, God made it happen.
I have no problem with a scientific examination of our universe. I have a problem with people who say science has disproven God, or that God can't exist because evolution made man. Science is not capable of, nor is it designed to, prove/disprove the existance of God. I will always have a problem with people who try to make it do so.

You said it, not me. What I said is that I pity people who ask God for conclusive, scientific, God-in-a-bottle type proof. If you think that's wrong, just read my bit above about science and God again.

 

Drew is not an atheist. He just isn't christian.

Drew has read many holy books and has noticed no reason to find one to be superior to another. He feels that the "my way is the only way" philosophy is arrogant, self centered, and short sighted.

Drew only needs proof if you expect him to believe that the existance of god is a fact, rather than a matter of faith. Drew thinks that NOG is the one who is limiting God by insisting on a single interpretation of a supposedly omnipotent deity. Kind of strange, since if said deity really were omnipotent it would defy human understanding.

If you really must know what Drew thinks about a Deity or the purpose of life, Drew believes that debate over the existence of God is largely pointless and a fruitless pursuit (though often a fun diversion). He feels that since there are many religions and philosophies to choose from that the best faith to follow is his own heart. Drew will die one day.....and maybe then he will know more about the nature of the universe. He is not concerned about the after life because he feels that if God actually cared what he thought about God (if there is God) he/she/it would come down and tell him him/her/it/self. Drew lives in accordance with stricter ethics than most Christians do, anyway. He is a vegan and an envioronmental activist. He doesn't lie, cheat, or steal. Drew wouldn't follow a God who punishes people for believing the wrong thing so he doesn't fear for his eternal soul.

[ April 18, 2006, 01:58: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Drew needs to stop speaking about himself in the third person, lest Drew develop some disturbing neuroses (like atheism!)

 

But you see...I'm not asking God, I'm asking you. The only evidence you've been able to offer up here is basically "I KNOW it's true, I just can't prove it." Why would you think any reasonable person would find that a satisfactory answer? And you certainly haven't provided a good reason why your particular faith is any more relevant or "right" than any other, despite repeated requests. And after all this, I can see from this sentance: "Where did gravity come from? Well, God made it happen." that I'm really just wasting my time. You have no idea that God "made it happen" any more than I do, you just think you do, and you certainly can't prove it. And I'm certain now that you'll never budge, forever insisting that if something's a mystery to you, "God must have done it!!" and letting your intellectual curiosity end then and there. You seem to relish in nonsense - in this insistance that incredible things can't possibly happen without God doing it - and now I pity you as well. Of course I believe some things in life are so beautiful and wonderous as to be God's doing - life itself is probably the best example of this among my personal beliefs. But since I don't know for sure, I don't settle for that - I continue to expand my knowledge and entertain new ideas. What's so frustrating is you insist on labeling as "facts" things that are merely your "beliefs." For you, the line between faith and fact is so blurred as to be nonexistant. If you'd said "I believe that God made gravity happen," we wouldn't have a problem. But the fact that you're so certain of something you couldn't possibly know makes me lose a lot of respect for you intellectually, to be quite honest. Personally you seem like a nice guy, though.

I'm done - have at it, Drew.

 

That statement is so self-contradictory, I don't know where to begin. But, to break it down... the reasoning seems to be "IF Universe=1 THEN God=1". Of course, this avoids the regressive question of "IF God=1 THEN... what?"

I think it would have been best to stop at "I don't know", NOG, because you don't know. Neither do I. Neither do any of us, in all truth, and the wiser course is to admit it. Some may believe, some may infer, some may avoid the question - but no-one knows for certain.

This I agree with wholeheartedly. Of course, one could replace "science" with "faith" or "belief" in the last sentence and be absolutely correct, too.