Libya

Remove all ads!

Sorry, Laches. I'm not trying to be difficult. But in April (as now) there was (is) so much boloney going on from those in power who are advocates of the war that I'm skeptical. I wish it was a neutral source rather than an advocate, but I can't trust it the way I would like - not that your source should be completely discounted.

We've had everything from forged documents to phony intelligence, and it just has not been Shrub, but Blair as well who many believe has been less than honest. It is one of the major reasons I am so emotional about the whole war thing. The blantant lack of honesty (and sheer arrogance) of those in power is distrubing to say the least.

 

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16589-2003Dec19.html

Edit - not in that quote but elsewhere (I think in that article or one of the others, Libya reached out around the start of the Iraq hostilities 9 months ago or thereabouts).

From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/20/opinion/20SAT1.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fEditorials

The above is pretty much my feeling on the subject. Libya did what it did for a variety of factors. One of those factors is a big stick right next door. Nobody deserves THE credit. A number of folks deserve SOME credit. The US is part of that group.

From the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,13031,1112091,00.html

I hope that the US stick can help with regards to this as well.

See, I thought that action in Iraq was justifiable from a humanitarian point of view. However, I also thought that in the long haul it would do more damage than good because I didn't think the US would have the willpower to commit itself for the long trek involved with rebuilding Iraq. I'm talking many years - Japan and Germany weren't rebuilt over night. Lots of folks, both in the US and outside, are demanding a quick withdrawal which I fear could cause problems and why I was concerned. I'm sure these calls are well intentioned but I don't think Iraq is ready to stand on its own. If those calling for a quick withdrawal get their way, I fear the worst but I hope that I'm proven wrong.

In the mean time, I hope some good comes from a stick being offered along with some carrots; like getting some of the nations in the region to back off their development of WMD's. Good for Libya. I hope it works out with Syria. It's bearing fruit in Iran. This is all for the good imo and has some relationship to the recent actions in Iraq. If Bush deserves blame for what goes wrong due to the actions in Iraq, he deserves credit for good that comes and is related to it. Your mileage may vary.

Oh, and Iran was moving toward some democratic reform before the whole Iraq brouhaha. One of my fears regarding the war was that the war would strengthen fundamentalists in Iran and thereby impede progress. The US' next door presence may help push Iran toward certain concessions, but I'm not sure that moving toward democracy is one of those. At least in the short term. That would only happen if Iraq turns out to be a success and that will only be known in a few decades.

 

I have very little doubt that a whole bunch of stuff went over to Syria. And that the entire middle east is connected through a network of terrorist organizations. They have better interconnectivity than Europe does.

Kill the Jews, effendi.

Iran is the only one that's got to bury what they have. And they've probably been taking note of North Korea's methods, and the methods used in Iraq. Class has been in session for a while, and they've been taking real good notes. Stick it underground, covered with concrete and sand, and spread the entrances out over an entire suburb.

If you know the sniper's got you covered, why not walk up to the door and see who's home? You might score some delicious porridge and a thimbleful of dew. If you know Syria is ready to go, why not get sanctions lifted so you can get the GNP necessary to fund all your extremists and milita groups?

These people aren't dumb. And they are focused on a common and tangible goal. It's not even remotely idealistic.

Like I've said before. It really is going to take a nasty incident before anyone is prepared to do something. In reality, people just don't feel threatened by this. Life is entirely too good right now. Christ, people are debating over where to build a fusion reactor, and which bi-pedal robot can run the fastest.

The problem is technology. Every year makes it easier to rack up the kills. Someone builds a better microbe. Or a more efficient gas centrifuge. Or a more lethal toxin. Or a better way of shielding radioactive material from satellite and ground-based detection.

Two towers and 2k is nothing, man. Call me when it hits a square mile and 20k the first day...

 

Negotiations with Libya... fine
Negotiations with Khadaffi... never

The man has to step down first, and present himself to an international court of law, then perhaps there's a chance of getting things started.

 

Laches, that quote was from the sensational, forged document retrieving, Conrad Black owned and Perle boarded Telegraph ... you get my point.

 

And the person who supposedly received this message was mr Silvio Berlusconi, a man who makes Bush look like a champion for truth, democracy and justice. Berlusconi is and have been for some time what many of Bush the seconds most vehement critics claim he is turning into.

 

Well it seems the the old Col. himself admits that the Iraq war had something to do with his decision to dismantel his WMD programs.

Here is a link to the CNN article/interview

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/22/gadhafi.interview/

 

I am amazed by this on many different levels. I am surprised an interview would be given to CNN and I am stunned that he would admit that.

Here is hoping that Syria will fall in line next.

 

Is this post now done?

 

Hilariously, yes.

 

Well, lately, some background information on the Libya deal:

Not quite the "scared sh*tless variant" some eagerly wanted to see to find another justification for the war ( the war was a good idea - at least it scared Ghaddafi )

In the end it seems as if Libya didn't really have anything to abandon, and then it should be seen as a fine trick by them to sell it as "opening to inspections" - when they actually never had anything to hide.

There might well have been an effect of the war on Iraq on the talks with Libya: That WMD became a issue because they were an issue with Iraq too and the US needed a WMD related success. So why not disarm an undeclared unarmed?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=490047

 

Well, I don't know about you BTA, but to me this sounds ominously similar to what people said last spring and summer about Saddam's WMD programs ...

 

What is more interesting is that top Pakistani nuclear scientist Ahmed Qadeer Khan had admitted selling nuclear weapon technology to Lybia....I guess they bought that information for a non existant program that they were not interested in.

 

Well, Saddam did say he didn't have WMD before the US invaded, the Bush crew insisted otherwise and yet Iraq seemingly was right when they saisd they had no WMD - just that admitted David Kay, US chief weapon inspector some three weeks ago (The same Kay who didn't hesitate to call people who said just that all along liars when he started his job).

So Libya sais it will drop his WMD program, saying in the same breath that they abandoned their WMD programs ten years ago. So what WMD did Libya give up? The ones they didn't plan to make and never made - never even developed?

And besides, the brits have eventually split with Bush over Libya, feeling Washington's ideological*, that is, hawkish or paranoid course - name it however you like, obstructs a sensible diplomacy.

An Op-Ed on secret obsessions at the top, like those with WMD prevalent in hawkish Washington circles in the last time ...

* "We don't speak with'em cuz they're evil, and because they are evil they lie anyway and who negotiates with liars?"

 

A whole bunch of people and countries bought secrets from that dude. Many countries have or want to have the knowledge to produce nukes, without ever having produced them. Sweden amongst many countries could probably have a nuke finished in a few months if we ever got the desire. The same is the case with most western European countries. If someone offered to sell secrets to arab countries I am sure they would like to find out as much as they could without nescessarily starting to build something.

 

Yeah, in the end it could lead the US to preemptively nuke every university with a decent physics department in the middle east ...

Having a centrifuge, special equipment and knowing how to build a nuke is one thing, and having a weapons program quite another.

 

Sweeden doesn't worry me....but countries like Iran and Lybia do. Now would a country like Lybia or Iran be bold, or crazy, enough to use nuke against the US? Maybe, I'm not sure, but would they use one against say Israel? Probably. I think that's an issue that some people don't think about. If a country like Iran came close to actually producing a nuclear weapon, it's a good bet that Israel would launch a pre-emptive strike to prevent such weapon from being produced. The US cannot just sit back and let Israel and do that....mainly because it could start yet another regional conflict between Arab states and Israel, and such a conflict would further destabilise the region. So, it's a good bet that the US would be forced to chose between the lesser of two evils and force that country to abandon such a program, by force if necessary.

 

I wonder why there is this obsession with Arabs, in Iraq, Libya, Iran and Pakistan being 'crazy' and willing to nuke Israel - not only that they are well aware it would lead to the annihilation of their major cities and an incredible bloodbath ... even autocrats need a people to rule - that is why they didn't do it and don't plan to.

You have this underlying accusation these people are crazy and that deterrence doesn't work on them.
I really wonder where that comes from - if it's a form of underling racism that these silly ragheads are just primitive fanatics with doom on their mind. Hello?

"The Arab is a patriot, not a whore," said hardline zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinski in the 1920s "He can't be brought off by the promise of economic benefits. And he's just as intelligent as you are."

And that means that deterrence works on Arabs too. Despots need a population and a country in order to be ... well, despotic. You cannot and mustn't project your paranoid post 911 phantasies on the Arabs as a whole. Arabs can be reasoned with. Just maybe not at gunpoint.
The nihilist killers of Al Quaeda are a tiny minority of muslimkind, and even they ain't crazy - they exactly know what they do and why they do it.

Try this: Washington's racism and the Islamist trap. Very much recommended.