Life after death

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Aegron wrote

That is exactly the core of what is wrong with Christianity in my honest opinion. No offence, but this is the overwhelming opinion I get from discussing with christians. Look at what you write damit. It's hard for me to find anything more wrong than saying morale has no meaning without a paradise at the end. I just call paradise a cookie instead. Or is paradise not as good as a cookie? *sigh*

Why the heck can't there be morale without a higher beeing? I am at a loss, as always, in understanding christianity. It's a simple question. I just can't get it into my thick head. Just can't. Even harder than understanding women.

EDIT; Plz I am not writing this to advocate Ateism, I am trying to understand. I just can't believe in a religion which's foundations I am utterly against.

Elios wrote

The root of my feelings.- Nicely put Elios.

[ January 11, 2003, 15:37: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

I agree with Nobleman, I too get tired of the claim morality exists only because of God. Again, morality would then be based solely upon fear, fear of what will happen when you're dead. Logically it doesn't make sense to say that anyhow because it doesn't explain why all the athiests behave within generally accepted moral codes.

 

no it's the other way around! There isn't morale because of either fear of God or wanting to gain a place in paradise.

There is a morale. We believe some things to be wrong and other's to be right. These 'moralistic rules'apear in some form or other in every society. So how come? i believe we didn't invent these rules all by ourselves but to put it spiritually God inspired these in us.

Heaven isn't the purpose of believing in God. it's a nice 'bonus'. I would still believe in God if there was no afterlife, because I think christianity in it's pure form is the best way to lead your life or to build up a society.

(if you want to know more about the morale stuff, C.S. Lewis' mere christianity is a great book!)

 

Make this assumption and look at what follows as was pointed out by the greeks:

(1) good is arbitrary -- based upon the whim of god.

(2) God is not good. If the good comes from God then God is prior to the good and is therefore outside of it.

(3) Good is unkowable unless you know the mind of god -- we need to talk to god to find out whether stem cell research is moral, whether.....

(4) Good is elastic. If god changes his mind murder is good starting Sept 16, 2003.

If you think that the good flows from god then you really need to agree with the above (what #3 means is debatable.) However, if the good is independent of god then god can be good, it is not necessarily arbitrary, and we can come to know it without having to understand god and aren't these good things?

 

@Aegron
So moral is put into us by God? Mankind is not able to invent such noble spirits by themselves? Then why aren't all people acting within God's moral codex? This leads us back to my other Grunt. The one that we are God's amusement park. If we are unable to be kind without God's help, then we are just as good of as toys. So you see either way around you put it; this Heaven for the praying only and the fact that we are unable to grow moral ourselves, doesn't make sense. At least for me.
If you can find a way to both explain why we need a God to be moral and at the same time not make us God's toys, You'll make me a very very happy dude

Laches wrote

Mathematically If A is part of B, Why can't B and A be equal? Or why can't B be even larger than A?
Put into words. If good comes from God. God can be both "only" good, but also something larger than Good. Something kinder. You see the deduction Laches?

Laches wrote

This, on the other hand, is a shining example of a logic hammer brought to the weakness of christianity's laws.

[ January 11, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Death is life's most inevitable experience. It's got a 100% success rate. It's probally life's most universially feared experience. And it certianly is mysterious. What will happen to me when I die?

Well I don't know all the details, and haven't gotten to experience one of those nifty near-death-experiences either, but I just can't wait to experience the warmth, the brilliance, the peace at last. The lion sitting down beside the lamb, the place were death and sorrow are not allowed in. You know we as humans are getting pretty smart. We can make a lot of things. Shoot we might even be cracking this human cloning thing sometime soon. But we can never make peace. True peace. Universal peace. That is something we can never get on our own. I can't wait for the real deal. I look forward to heaven.

I can't wait to see some spectacular sights too. Some real special effects, live action. I'm referring to when Jesus comes back and Satan is bound and thrown, him and all the lies he has fed to mankind throughout the years, into a lake of fire. It will be an awesome sight to behold (well depending who's side your on.) A new heaven and earth being created. New Jerusalem descending from heaven. It's going to be glorious.

If you want a realy good Bible study, check out Hebrews 11. Verses 13-16 tell us that the great heroes of the faith died "without receiving the promises." They got a glimpse of them "from a distance" and took God at His word for their fulfillment in another, "better country, that is, a heavenly one." In verses 25 and 26 we review that Moses choose to put his faith in rewards through God rather than the limited rewards of life. The idea here is faith and endurance are key. And at the end of the race are the real rewards. This world is not the real world. This life is not the real deal. This is just the prologue to a great story. Now don't think that because this life is so brief, and just a precursor to what's to come, that it is inconsequential. Our brief stay here may seem unimportant, but that is not the truth. We may not remember or care what our lives have been, but God remembers perfectly and cares very much. Eternity will hold for us what this life has invested in it.

Nobleman, you refer to it as a cookie. Here's how I think about the rewards in heaven. I think about the summer camp I worked at last summer and one of my campers, Scott, a mentally challenged man of 36 (but you couldn't tell, he looked 20 and was very athletic). Scott and I had a ball. He lives in Georgia though and I may never get to see him again - here on earth that is. But one day, Scott and I are going to get to continue that friendship - for eternity. That thought is very rewarding. When I speak of rewards in heaven. I'm not talking about my condo with a Corvette out front. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Friendships that last. Eternity is after all eternity. There's going to be plenty of time to get to know and share out of this world (literally) experiences with my fellow believers and that includes everyone from my family members, to friends, to the heroes from the Bible. Everyone who believes, has faith, and endures.

I was eating a quick lunch the other day, right before classes were about to begin for the new sememster here at college and this lady comes up to me. She smiles, tells me "welcome back", and gives me a half-hug (I'm still seated, trying to see if I recognize her). Well I realize that I don't recongize her. I've never seen her before in my life. And I said "thanks" and then she offered an explanation. She told me she had seen me praying before my meal and just wanted to come over and say a few words of encouragement since I had offered her some. Well I'll never see her again - here on this earth that is. But one day in heaven, we'll have plenty of time to talk and do things together. So like Abraham and Moses and other believers, I get glimpses of the kingdom, but I have to continue the race. I'm not there yet.

And although I know I'm not (my faith stands in the way), let's say this whole idea is a sham. That the Bible is full of itself, and I'm believing in a lie. In other words, let me buy into Satan's lies for just a second. I live my life and then I die. And like Blog suggests I slip into a state of sleep and nothing else. How am I going to know if what I believed in was right or wrong? I'm asleep. I'm nothing. That's it. What harm have I done? Wasted my life? Not enough fun? Too much time Bible studying and praying? How will I know though? I'm asleep remember? I'm nothing remember? I've got nothing to loose. However, let's come back to reality. When you find yourself in heaven or hell, you're going to know alright. There's a big difference. Here you've got everything to loose or gain.

Here's an idea to ponder: We say our life is ours, and it's all about us. ME and MINE. What happens to you in eternity is about you. It is YOUR DECISION. YOUR CHOICE. This is not God's playground. We are not his test subjects. God has given everyone the right to CHOOSE. He could have bound Satan already, taken us into heaven and that would be that. But would you have chosen that? Would it not be construed that God never gave you the choice? That in fact you are being held there against your will. That's why it isn't that way. That's why God lets us enjoy our lives, but he also has something even greater for us. But we have to choose it. That's the only way it becomes authentic.

I can survive a limited life on a battlefield for the sake of an eternity of peace. And I get the comfort of knowing it was my choice to choose between an eternity of peace and an eternity of suffering.

[ January 11, 2003, 19:43: Message edited by: Big B ]

 

Personally I find it hard to accept religion of any kind. I think that mankind first invented religion and the afterlife to comfort those who would shortly be traveling there. It's no co-incidence that churches are mostly inhabited by people above a certain age. There comes a time in your life when you begin to realise that you aren't going to be on this earth for ever, and as an outgrowth of that realisation you start wondering what will happen to youself afterwards.

We know, of course, what happen to the *physical* you. Decompisition, hole in the ground, worms having breakfast etc. etc. We've had a good long time to see that, and lets face it, if thats all that happens death isn't much fun. And so humankind invented the soul. Ah...now there was a good idea. Its not physical see, so when we die the body goes one way but the soul goes...well where? Now here comes religion. Another great idea. Yup, with religion comes the idea that after death you go somewhere nice, maybe with palm trees and sunny beaches, everybody is very happy. This is a great idea. Everybody is pleased. Untill the next complication anyways. Suddenly someone thinks to himself, "Hold on, does that mean all the murderers and rapists and whatnot get to go to this big happy place too? Hardly seems fair does it?" And so religion gets a few new rules. Now its "Live a good life and behave yourself and THEN you'll go to the happy place." The idea that you might not go to heaven of course, presented you with another problem. If not heaven then where? And so hell was invented too. (On a side note I'm not just talking about christianity with my heaven and hell, many religions share simular beliefs).

One of my problems with religion is that it tends to change when it encounters something new. The fanatics inside the religion itself might call it a "revelation", a new concept which changes the rules of the religion and which must surely be inspired by the resisident deity. <insert sarcasm in previous sentence> The thought that it wasn't a revelation, that it wasn't inspired by god, rarely occurs to them. Because that would mean the unthinkable: God, and by extension the Church, might not be infalible. And if god can make mistakes, then the idea of worshiping him isn't as much of a comfort.

Um...I think I've started to ramble, its been a long night. Eh...bye.

 

Nobleman, my saying god would be outside of good was a poor choice on my part. Better to say that god would pre-date good. Good would be something it made up at a later date and there wouldn't be the sort of moral worthiness associated with people who do good things associated with god. Sort of like there isn't any worth in winning a game when you made the game up and can change the rules as you go.

 

I disagree. Faith is not about doing good just because of fear or hopes for reward. Personally I do good because that's the way God created my in his image and I regret doing wrong because I upset him that way. Deserving your salvation in Christianity is related, right, but it's just this way.

 

I was talking with my mom and my wife. Both were raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools all their lives. (My wife is a little older than I am, so she went to school a genreation before me.) When they were taught about heaven and hell, it was if you sin, you will spend time in purgatory and then depending on your life, you cluld go to either heaven or hell. This is what my parents taught me as I was groing up. I went to a Catholic grade school for eight years. They didn't teach much about the logistic of heaven and hell till we were older. Than, in my eight grade religion class, we had a priest teaching us about heaven and hell and really getting into the details. He taught us that we are all forgiven for our sins when we die. First, we'll spend time in purgatory, I imagined it as a bunch of people sitting around playing cards waiting for someone to come into the room and say, "Ok, Dave, you can come into heaven now." Then we move into heaven. He taught us that no one goes to hell anymore? Anymore? Seriously, that is how he put it. What has hell reached its capacity? I didn't understand since what my mom had taught me conflicted with what I learned in school. I think it was around that point that I started questioning a lot of things with Catholisism. In a lot of cases I think the "rules" of a religion are made up to benefit those in charge of the religion at that time.

 

Laches
Yuo are right Laches there is no point in playing a game invented by oneself. But God made it for others. I don't see God on earth. So I I get a little Itch about your extrapolation. Anyway I agree that we can logically assume God Predates Good. But did he for a fact? God may have an ocean of feelings and that one day presented good. We cannot logically deduct that good wasn't part a part of God. He could have given us his heart not a flower, so to romantically say.

BIG B.
Whoa! I had one of those enligntening experiences. I don't know what it was in your post but I suddenly felt a rush of impressions rushing in. As if I was seeing things through your eyes, feeling your feeling. Sensing your peace. I am still not convinced at all, but I'll do just as you say. Ponder for a few days. redead your post over and over just to make sure "it" doesn't slip. I'll rest my case against Heaven/hell; for now

Just a two connected questions BigB. You ask what harm you've done when you are about to rest on this earth. I would like to ask the same. What harm have I done in this world if I preacher good, friendship and integrity? But on the other hand openly despise Christianity in all its heavenly/hell varieties?

Is it blashpemy to teach that the feelings God gave us, is infact mankinds' feelings amongst ourselves? I could even continue and say I certainly spend my time to encourage more people and help more people instead of trying to save my own and other's skin in an endless wave of prayers. I find peace in the moment and in other people, and not in the shared thought of an eternal afterlife. Big B, you say you can't wait to see heaven. I beg to differ I can wait to die. I'll treasure this world every damn inch of the way. Even when I am certain that all the choices I sacrificed were in vain, when I eventually die.

I'll quote the King, Elvis. He rounds my thoughts up pretty well.

EDIT;
BigB
All I can say is that I am sorry for myself. The peace I felt from looking at things through your eyes that split second was just a moment's revelation. I'll certainly not feel that comfort and warmth in my lifestyle. You have those revelations all the time. But I feel no envy for it.

I'll be so bold as to say that a true Christian would sacrifice heaven for his friends, even for the murderer who killed your family in cold blood while you were watching. Your dad. Your mother your brothers and sisters. If the sacrifice could make the murderer forgive his sins and be a better man then isn't it worth it according to the bible? How many christians would be left if they had to sacrife heaven for a sinner? One. Jesus

[ January 12, 2003, 13:40: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

I understand you're a good person Nobleman. I've always known I've enjoyed reading your posts. I even see why it makes people mad that they do good but just because they don't believe in God, some Christian comes along and has the audacity to tell them if they don't believe they are going to hell. I understand that. I can't speak for others, but I say it because I care. I know some people actually enjoy pointing the finger and telling people they are going to hell. I wish this didn't happen, but it does. I just want you to realize that you're close. You can continue to do good. You can continue to preach friendship and integrity. But you can add to it and become a believer. It gives your efforts even more of a purpose.

It's more than just saving your skin. I know when I was little that's what is was for me. I needed to get to heaven so I can avoid hell. Now that I've grown up I realize it isn't so much about saving my skin. It's about accepting a gift, receiving love from God, and doing what I can to give it back and share it with others. Once a believer, always a believer.

That's why I don't understand what you mean by sacrificing heaven. Once you're a believer, you're always a believer - you can't sacrifice it. Now you may have downtimes. Some people call it backsliding. I think it's more like discoragement, maybe even depression. Once you're a believer, Satan has lost any claim over you. But he will still try to get you down and out, to neutralize you. Because even if you're a believer, if all you're doing is sitting in the corner quietly, you're no threat to him. But still once a believer, always a believer.

Now one thing you can sacrifice is your life. I don't remember the details on hand, but didn't a girl at Columbine pray during the shootings, and one of the gunmen told her to deny God at gunpoint and she wouldn't. And he shot her. That was an example right there. Who knows how many people have been brought one step closer to Christ through that alone. Would I have done the same? Yes. If you're going to die, might as well go out with a bang. The thought that your witness at death might impact others makes the thought of death more comforting.

As for the gunmen or even the murderer in the example you gave, I don't believe anyone is beyond redemption. That's just another lie. No matter what you've done, you can be redeemed. You can ask for forgiveness and receive salvation through Christ.

 

Nobleman and Big B, thanks for all the stimulating postings. I hope you don't mind me adding something about the raised finger syndrome.

There are two passages in the bible worth considering in this case. (I'm not sure which chapters but I believe it's either the gospel of Luke or Mark) On one hand Jezus tells us that we have only two choices: 1) either choose for God and gain everything or 2) choose against God and loose everything. This passage is used by lots of people to condemn everyone not openly worshipping God they way they do.

But there is another passage where Christ says that unless people act AGAINST God we should warn them/hate them (not sure which one). So we should not use the finger (no pun intended) if people do good but don't say they believe in churches or whatever.

There's only one who can make the choices for/against God and that is you/me for yourself.

C.S. Lewis (yes I know I'm a great fan of his books!) but it like this in "the last battle":
everything you did good in name of an evil deity you actually did for me. And all the evil things done in my name weren't done for me but for the devil.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I like to believe this! But this doesn't mean people should do just good and leave it at that. I would like to see those people to take the last step into the light and warmth of God!

(nobleman if you have time and interest I advice you to read a few books written by C.S. Lewis on these matters. If your interested just pm me ok?)

 

I think there is life after death. But I am not sure if it is in this time or in this world.
I was baptisblah when I was a child. Almost all poeple here do that. But I don't believe a **** in any god. I don't think they exist and that doesnt bother me. All my friends are going to " konfirmeras" (sorry, dont know the word in english) except me. Tis when you read about god and then you do a test and theres alot of stuff in the church, and you get LOTS of prezzies!
I went to my cousins konfirmation.

 

Confirmation.

 

I think that you will spend some time with god (or whatever) and later you will reborn into any creature on earth. I also think that no new souls are made, only the already used ones will come back. The time? Dunno, meaby a hundred or so years. I hope I would be a eagle or a wolf. Free or a respected killer.

 

Sorry I haven't written back sooner. I was thinking

The point about sacrificing heaven was a mere hypothetic question. You have a friend that is not a believer. One day God comes down to you and tells you that you can choose to let your friend come in heaven instead of you. Would you sacrife this amazing gift? If you do you will vanish when you die. And that is it. This is in a way my world. I sacrifice heaven each day to help others. The question is will christians? I know one who kinda did it. Jesus Christ.

Special note;
Unlike the woman you mention, who got shot for preying, I am still on earth able to help and trying to help the weak and the sad. Not up in heaven enjoying my gift and chatting with moses. Earth matters my friend. it is not a railway station where you just hang around and wait for the next train to heaven. In a way I am pretty mad at her.

An idea;
But If you want I'll gladly go around and telling every christian that I'll shoot them if they don't stop preying. And I will. Because all that christians spend their whole life looking for, is to get, as you put it, one step closer to jesus. Heck with you all christians happy up in heaven, there is more room for the starving and miserable here on Earth. World could be a better place. Just let me know everytime someone has chosen God(each confirmation perhaps). I'll bring my gun. It will save us a lot of time. You get to prove your faith and we get more space for the rest of us. I know I am harsh. But it is the only way to get some more believers' opinions into this. That is why I end up in hell, possibly with Han Solo

PS: Please remember to answer my question. It is a simple yes or no.

[ January 14, 2003, 21:14: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Believe is something nobody can take away from you. God reaches out to us, while we drown in a stinking pool of our own cowdy. When He reaches to pull you out (He sends His Holy Spirit), you have to grab His hand (accept and believe that Jesus died for you) and He WILL pull you out. Once He holds you, He will never let you go.

I can preach good, friendship and integrity, I can give my money to the poor, I can sacrifice my life, it won't help me if I don't believe that Jesus died for me.
People can talk down to me, bully me, take my selfrespect away. People can take my money. They can take my photographs. They can take my life and burn my family. But they can't get me away from God.

The devil wants us to believe that we won't be redeemed and that we shouldn't even dare to ask. An other lie.

"He has removed our rebellious acts as far away from us as the east is from the west."

About the raised/pointing finger:
Who am I to judge others? I'm as filthy as any other human. But on the other hand, What if I don't warn other people that they go to hell if they don't believe Jesus died for them? He would be cursing, crying and asking why I didn't warn him.

Many people ask 'If God is good, then why is there so much death, hunger and sorrow?'
-We chose it- 'Why did God made the opportunity to choose it?' Answer:
Imagine your the only man (or woman) on earth and a woman (or man...) would come up to you and shared her life with you. It would be different if there was an other for her to choose for. If she would choose you when there are others, her love means much more. IMO, it's the same with God. He didn't want us to be robots, programmed to love him. He wanted us to choose for Him so He could see our love. But we did otherwise. And still He loves us.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God."

I couldn't say 'no' to His proposal.

 

Master, could I basically sum up what you said in one sentence? God gave us free will.

 

Neat-o. I'm finall back, I have not posted in like at least a week. Anyways, the afterlife is such a neat topic for debate. It conjures up deliciously wonderful ideas about heaven and having fun and not getting hurt, and on the other hand spawns nightmare-ish fantasies in hell(or whatever other plane of existence you believe in) being whipped and burned and such. Some people, no names mentioned, believe that there is a collective human sub-conscience that all your instincts or shared ideas go to, and that can be what spawns deja-vu. At the same time, it's not my idea or belief. I do not believe in an extreme afterlife, maybe something more mundane, but i live for the mundane and mediocre. Like life here, but on a more personal level with everything generated by your mind(whats left of it?) but maybe black and white, with some gray for life. I am not sure. It's neat though. Just like melon ballers.