Life after death

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Elios, I'm not sure. Deep in our heart we always choose for the devil, the world and ourselves i.s.o God, the afterlife and others. Our soul is slave of our sinns and without the intervention of the Holy Spirit we would never choose for God.
This is probably the reason that some people don't want to believe in a god that chooses some of us, but not all. We can only be glad that some of us will go to heaven, since we all deserve hell, because we screwed the whole lot.
For them who believe in God, be glad. He saved you. For them who don't believe in God, don't think you will go to hell allready. There was a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus, who changed his life at its very ending.

 

Master what about my simple questions?
I know it is hard for christians to extrapolate beyond the standard phrases they learn in church and are explained by their parents at home. But try.

Question A
God comes down and offers you the choice to give your gift, Heaven, to a friend a non believer and instead of him, you vanish *puff*. Gone when you die. No funny chats with Jesus. No grandpa waiting. No eternal joy. No nothing. The End.
Yes or no answer?

Question B;
After confirmation I can come and shoot ya' all. Then you get to prove your faith, and come not only one step closer to Jesus but all steps closer. And We get more space here on earth. In christianity it is apperently only about proving your faith. Not about doing good. But accepting a choice. Right? Isn't that the core of it all. Choose? Doing good all life or evil all life is of no relevance. Just the honest choice at the end. Emphasis on honest. I can help you. All you gotta do is honestly believe when I shoot you. *wham* you are heaven. What a ride. It has no flaws in the christian concept of logic. Isn't it a fabulous idea?
Yes or no answer?

*I risk with this post that my previous post will be forgotten, but heck I am a gambler*

Edit; And I haven't even started *****ing about my third grunge. All in this scenario are presently non believers. A police officer accidentally kills a person when his gun discharges. He panicks and run but gets hit by a speeding Truck, whose driver is drunk as hell. The officer didn't get a chance to have a long life to figure it out and redeem himself and so goes to hell. The drunk driver do get a chance to have a long life to ponder and so goes to heaven. Christianity makes the world so easy, huh . I love that christians speak so much of choices when you instantly flip the coin and jab on about God's will instead, when the other doesn't fit.

EDIT 2; Now I think I have packed enough in this post. I hope you take the time to really think before you answer.

[ January 15, 2003, 14:57: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Nobleman, don't take this the wrong way, but your questions are irrelevant.

A) God won't come to us with this question, because we can't help our next door neighbour. the only Person who could do this is God's son, Jesus Christ. Because he did this for us God comes to every person on this planet and ask him or her: "I've got the best gift in the entire world! you don't have to pay for it, I'm giving it to you for free! the only thing you have to do is bow down for me."

(For an answer to the question, I HOPE I can say give my place to someone else, because Jesus has said: "everyone who will give his life for me or for someone who needs it, will be rewarded with life in heaven")

B) I'm not sure if this is the answer to your question, but no it would not be great! Everyone hopes (I think) that he or she has the faith to make the right decision in these circumstances, but as said before: faith isn't meant to be proven (look how faithful I am!) but because you believe in God you want to act nice to people around you.

As shown in the example by my first answer, God gives us the greatest gift in the entire universe. IMHO it is only logical for christian to be glad about this gift and thus start showing this by helping other people/doing good deeds.

This is the fundamental difference between christianity and any other religion: christians get it for free and because of this they do good things. In any other religion it is because you do good things you are rewarded with a place in heaven, nirwana or whatever.

I hope I've made it somewhat clear, but this hard to do in a forum!

 

So you don't even have to be christian to go to heaven. That was a change. Actually by spending your life helping others, you'll be rewarded with heaven. Perhaps Jesus is not all that twisted as his Father.

How can you be so sure of your faith when you know so little of the other religions? And just toss them all of in a single wiggle. This is even more frightening. Man, I have spent most my years really digging around religions. It is with overwhelming majority my most interesting study. Just because I attack your belief doesn't mean I do it in evil intention. I want to learn. I will gladly take a rumble with most other religions. Not for the point of getting a rise out of butkicking, but to learn.

Back to my two questions.
A:
I see it is impossible for a believer to help a non believer in his quest for God, since you will not extrapolate on a scenario that doesn't already fit into a believers mind. Am I supposed to believe before I can believe or what?

B:
It is really not your choice to make. It is actually my choice now that I think of it. Anyone who kills a christian has got it right. Man, a lot of people out there are doing a hell of a work for Christians each day. Since heaven is given for free, those who kill christians have seen the bigger picture. I wish I had the guts to help you die.
Fantastic religion. And you can't help me. Since it is my choice to kill you. Mine alone.

EDIT; And no, it is in fact easier to discuss religion in a forum. Since Religion is a very heavy topic, and in life action talk you have to answer immediately. And it accomplishes nothing. To say it boldly. Humanity is not intelligent enough to use its own creation, language, in life action speak. With Forums you can reread think reread. Think. etc. Much more suited for an open mind. open minds are important for any discussion though.

This sounds like a bribe to me. My momma always said to me, "When you play in the park, never say yes to candy from strange men". What you write could quite likely be the strange man's words...
Oh man, that was blashpemy sorry. <--- to myself

[ January 15, 2003, 15:36: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

From my point of view, there´s nothing after dead, no joy, no parents waiting, no "big chief", just nothing..

That´s why I´m not afraid of what while happen to me after I die (when I die there might be something to be afraid of), because I´m not afraid of nothing..
and when I´m dead I won´t wail about the changes I missed in life or how I miss life, because there is nothing, also nothing that gives me the power to think, nothing that gives me the power to be me.

That´s my own afterlife, nothing. Or in other words I don´t have a afterlife

..

A few days ago a Christian came to me trying to save my soul, I thanked her because of that, but honestly, these people are afraid of what´s to come and therefore they make themselves believe that there´s a higher being, a reward waiting for them after dead and that reward is everything their heart desires, peace.

 

@Nobleman:

Let me say I am impressed by the fact that you even knew it was called a Hardy-Weinberg. Have they let you use the Flintstone Phone yet? Yabba-Dabba-Doo, I like talking to you!

My reference to a predator/prey system as far as souls go wasn't meant to be taken as an argument. It was a joke. You know, like the ones above. I do that. You know, with the joking. Try it some time. Seriously.

As far as a transplant goes, no, that wouldn't change who I am. I'd still have all of my other gooey organs and I'd be aware of the procedure. It's not like I woke up one day and WHOAAA! Where the hell is my spleen? That might be a little different, and severely disturbing [though not altering of an identity, again, still more gooey organs that haven't been pilfered]. By configuration I was being relatively loose, otherwise my mere breathing creates a new entity every second. But if I woke up and I was a friggin' marmot or something, that'd be pretty life-altering. [Mainly because I'd've lost me brain!]

Losing THAT [unless somehow after your brain shut off and you became a ghost you had a ghost-brain, now that would be awesome] Ahem... anyway, losing your conscious state, the only state you've ever truly "known" or perceived, well, consciously, is what makes life-after-death so hard to fathom for me.

Noblerman
...er- Amon-WinRaR

 

A. NO
B. YES

A. As stated above God would never force this situation to happen. But I see you want us to think hypothetically. Hypothetically, if this scenario happened I couldn't do it. There is no way I could exchange eternity in heaven for eternity in hell for a friend. Selfish? Yes. I'm human what do you expect. Eternity is a long time. But again this choice will never come into play so it is irrelevant. I don't have to be a super hero. God has taken care of everything. This is not the choice I have to make. The only choice I have to make is do I believe in God, do I trust in him, and do I accept his love and want to return it as best I can.

B. Yes you could kill me. Or anyone else for that matter. The loss is one less soldier on the battlefield, the gain is one more soldier welcomed home. However, it is important to know that I do not need to prove my faith to anyone but God. And since God is the only being who can see through everyone and their thoughts, no flashy scenes are needed. He knows.

"So you don't even have to be christian to go to heaven. That was a change. Actually by spending your life helping others, you'll be rewarded with heaven. Perhaps Jesus is not all that twisted as his Father."

Nobleman you argue the importance of studying other religions and not to just look at part of them and judge. This is what you are doing here. This is just a snippet of Jesus' teachings. You cannot accurately conclude that "you don't even have to be a christian to go to heaven" as Jesus teaches that no one can get to heaven except through Him alone. Please be considerate of the whole beliefs of Christianity. And don't judge on external factors. The Bible is the heart of it all. I know studying the Bible isn't always the easiest. It's been translated and words don't always add up. This is when pastors become a valuable tool. They have been trained. They have taken Greek. They can help you with your questions. Take classes yourself. Ask questions. Pray before you study the Bible. Ask for wisdom and understanding. Keep an open mind. It's easy to twist the scripture to fit your ideas. Keep yourself in check. Study the whole context not just the parts. If you study just the parts you may run into what seems like contradictions. But if you study it on a whole, and the context and really think about who the author is, what he was experiencing at the time, who his audience is, then the pieces fall into place. If you want answers then go to the source. The Bible. And if you have more questions/concerns post them. And we'll see what we can do.

 

Reply on Nobleman's questions in post of 14.17am this day. (I didn't read the others...yet)

A)That may seem a simple question for a non-believer. I could only answer it if nothing happens to non-believers and if christians would go to heaven if there was a god.
A major thing in christianity is that I love God and the other people. If I could swap places with a non-believer so he would go to heaven and I would vanish (No heaven, no hell, no anything), then I could let this man go to heaven, since I should help people and wish them all the best. But if I did so, what would my love for God mean? If you love somebody, you want to be with him/her. So I would choose for God AND my fellow-humans and see Him and all of you in heaven. That's why a christian would tell everybody about what God has done for us: to take some friends to the party!
But you want me to answer with yes or no. I say 'yes, i would swap places'. (I only say yes to give an answer but it has no meaning. This question is impossible to answer)

B) Sounds great! I could also jump from a cliff or run into a train. But I shouldn't fall for that trick. God has given us a place here on earth. We should protect our lifes and musn't bring it into danger willingly, on purpose. We must never forget, though, that heaven is more important then this life on earth, so I would rather have myself killed if I should make a choice for God or life on earth.

Third grunge: You wont go to hell for accidentally killing someone. You didn't mean to, you won't be judged for it. You will only be judged for disbelieve. And even if that policeman didnt have a long life to think of his accident, he DID get a life long enough to choose for God.
The drunken truckdriver did have a longer life and he was sorry for his 'accident' (accident was not giving the policeman a shortway to hell, but getting drunk and speeding). If he believes Jesus died for him instead, then, yes, he would go to heaven. But he will hear there that he shouldn't have drunk so much.
Christianity doesn't make the world easy. Or mankind? I don't know, but I know that christians could expect a life not to easy.

--reading other posts now--

Aegron answer A: agree, but Jesus didnt mean to give our afterlife to someone else (as in Noblemans question), but this life.
Aegron answer B: agree

Nobleman, can you sum up some religions where the afterlife is given for free? This is not a challenge, I want to know more about other religions, especially the ones who give away heaven for just believing.

Fanastic religion! Indeed. and I can help you by telling you about it, the rest is up to you and God.

If you were really sorry, you would edit your post and take that away...

Or they are just so happy that they can't keep their mouth shut about it and want to take some friends with them to heaven... Just an other interpretation.

 

@MoN, Big B, and all other Christians/Catholics: I am very happy for you to have found such fulfillment and joy in your faith!

The "problem" I have with your version of Heaven, though, is that I find it hard to believe that paradise is a closed party. Is a devout Jew, someone who worships regularly and is a genuinely good person, eliminated from Heaven because of the technicality of not recognizing Jesus? How about a Muslim (leaving the radical fundamentalists out of the equation for now) or a Hindu or a Buddhist? These people have all accepted a being they recognize as God and live according to His teachings. Are they too condemned because the God that they know isn't the Trinity that you know?

This is the question that leads me to believe that God is where you find Him/Her/It and that you'll reach Heaven as long as you're true to your personal spirituality. As someone else said, I'm closer to God during a walk in the woods than sitting in a church.

 

Rallymama, as a devout Jew, you recognize the Old Testament, right? Exodus 20:3. You disagree with this part? You disagree with God? That is who you worship, correct?

What are your thoughts on Messianic Jews? I've yet to meet one, but I would really like to.

 

I'm not really a devout anything, Big B, and it's been a long time since I've read the Bible. Refresh me on the verse?

 

A brief comment: RC catechism says that the sole faith is not enough and that non-believers may be saved. Jesus once said people will be judged basing on deeds towards other people only. Of course almost no one would survive divine law based judgement in terms of being released from charges, and it's yet stricter in terms of merit. Thus faith helps and grace is needed. Non-believers are however not excluded since all the people are Children of God, regardless of whether they know and/or follow Him and His ways or not. Apostasy is a more complex issue though, so don't quote me there.

[ January 15, 2003, 21:23: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

 

In all honesty, I don't like to believe that non-Christians who have never gotten a chance to come in contact with Christ, salvation, and the like all go to Hell. God is not mean. I believe that He gives people a chance to repent. Jesus talked to Prostitutes, he preached to the unclean. Perhaps God had other ways of revealing His love to those not exposed to Christianity. Frankly, I have no idea - that's what God only knows.

And yes, I believe when I die, I'll be with God and Jesus. You can point out that the Earth is not 10,000 years old, Jesus was not the Savior, that the Bible is inaccurate, and so forth. That does nothing; it is only proof, and proof won't change belief.

 

Sorry Rallymomma, misread your post. I though you said "as a devout Jew" not "is a devout Jew". But Exodus 20:3 is the first of the Ten Commandments, a direct qoute from God - "You shall have no other gods before me."

 

I am sort of inclined to Terry Pratchetts view of the afterlife in the Discworld books. You go where you are expecting to go. So I am real busy thinking up some really sweet places for me to end up after I have died in a freak accident.

I wont jump into the theological discussion here but I would like to say that Terry Pratchett must be one of the worlds greatest theologicans. Read his Small Gods and all of his other books as well, he is so right on target on the matter of religion. That is one area where the discworld mirrors our world perfectly. Atleast when it comes down to how we humans work.

 

No probs, Big B. And I'm fully on board with the "No other gods before me" part, too. The hypothetical people I described have each accepted God, just maybe not the God of the OT. Is salvation dependent upon what form God takes?

 

Ok, question for everyone. How do you account for the change in the teachings of the church on heaven and hell? Like I said in an earlier post, my wife and mother were taught if you were bad, you went to hell. When I went through grade school, 15 years or so ago, I was taught that everyone is forgiven and everyone makes it into heaven. Has anyone else heard or experienced similar teachings? How can what seems like "God's stance on bad people" change like that?

 

Come on Elios! They had to soften up or else everyone would leave the church. The beliefs and the truth changes with the society, to fit the world as it is at the current time. Eternal truth my...

 

Rallymama (nice pic btw ): You're right, they won't get in heaven. Like Big B said, there is only one God. If you don't want to know Him, He doesn't want to know you when the time comes. Only those God recognizes as a believer may enter. No matter how good you've been.
Major thing for christians is to believe that Gods only son died for you instead. You can be a jew, believing in the same god, being good all your life, but if you don't believe that Jesus died for you, you would simply say that Jesus was hitted, scourged (?), humiliated, nailed to the cross with the sun on his wounds and choking, all this for zip, zero, zilch. Like we could do it better.
So it is secluded, but it would also be secluded if only the good-doers may enter.
I believe however, that there will be different punishments in hell. If you have been good and didn't believe there was a god, God would treat you better then those who believed there was a god, but raised the big finger to Him.

To Joacqin: If a church is changing its believes and thruth, then it would not be a 'good' church, since God hasn't changed and never will.

 

Couple of comments:

"Ok, question for everyone. How do you account for the change in the teachings of the church on heaven and hell?"

What does the Bible say? Look for answers in the Bible, not the Church. I hate to say that, but some times the Church gets off track. That's why God ensured the Bible was written. Interestingly enough, there's all kinds of letters by Paul to various churches concerning all sorts of issues.

"If you don't want to know Him, He doesn't want to know you when the time comes."

I think this is a bit harsh of stance. God does want to know us and vice versa. But at the same time the choice is ours. Thus he sends Jesus to save man. We even have the Bible. We get to decide if we are going to believe in it or write it off. In other words, before we die, we've had our chance.

"I believe however, that there will be different punishments in hell."

Careful, there isn't Biblical basis for this that I am aware of. I realize it's your opinion. I just want people to know that this is an opinion rather than something out of the Bible.