Life after death

Remove all ads!

Knowing Him doesn't mean knowing Him like you know acquiantances, friends, celebrities even. You know Him if you know His ways and follow them. It's even explained somewhere... don't remember where.

And not everyone is to be saved according to the Bible. Of course it leaves some margin for such a possibility, I mean it doesn't necessarily have to contradict what's written in Bible, but is highly unlikely. Eastern Orthodox Church I think includes apocastasy as a part of doctrine.

 

about the being one of the selected few or not thing: I think we shouldn't say a thing about this because we do not know! We're not God and only He decides! One can say for himself: "I believe in God and therefore I will go to heaven" but we cannot say "oh he doesn't follow our doctrine! tsk, tsk no hard feelings, but down you go!" (not intended as attack at the other people around here!)

As Christ says: we can judge for ourselves and if we don't act like God asks from us in the Bible, we've got a problem, but if someone does good things, don't judge him for not believing (or believing different), let that be something betweeen him and God!

 

Just to clear things up, Nobleman, I wasn't arguing that god didn't create the good. I also wasn't arguing that the good was created by god. I just meant that if god created the good then applying moral judgements to god is inapporpriate because god was prior to the good logically and the good is defined by whatever it says it is. Most people like to think of god as good.

 

@Amon-Ra
The reason why I wrote Amon-WinRar in that particular phrase and not in the other, was to make sure that you understood it was a joke. A bend out angle of your quite understandable sense. It was a joke. Man you should try that one day. Seriously

@Big B
I commented on the point about Jesus saying that heaven was for everyone who gave their life, just to prove that it makes no sense to quote one or two sentences from the bible. You say it yourself. it is a snipplet of his teaching. Quoting more or less relevant phrases of the bible gains nothing in the discussion, nomatter how well meant they are. They can be bend and streched to everyones liking. That is manipulation. And hence not a benefactor for the discussion. So please refrain from quoting single sentences from the bible. I like it much better how you do it BigB. Using your own words

@BigB
You tell me pastors can help me understand the bible since it is only made of words, which can be misconceived. But you also hate to say it but some churches are off track. I should go find the answers in the bible myself. You are really making it hard sometimes. But never tell me the odds

@MoN
You are right if I was truly sorry about that joke I would have deleted it. But My gut comedian side can't just let that quote hang in the air. If God doesn't have a sense of humor, then paradise is way of track. You can't just write this and not notice the dirty joke.

@Laches
I don't think we'll ever agree unless we get together with pen and paper. Let me try again.
If you give me a rose you have planted yourself are you prior to the rose? Yes of course.
If you give me your heart are you prior to your heart? No.
Can we agree so far? Now imagine good as beeing God's heart. Now is it logical to conclude that God was prior to Good? No.

****
I can't manage to agree with myself on all the new opinions here in just a mere day. I don't have a super mind that just figures it all out. I'll have to look into it for a while. I'll edit when that has happened.

[ January 16, 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

@Big B
In all cases you're right. A small comment about the God-wants-to-know-us-issue:
I agree with you that God wants to know all of us and that He sent His Son. But if we don't want to know His Son or if we are not prepared, then the Son will say He doesn't know us (Judgementday) Math 25:12

@Nobleman:
I understood the joke (you lil rascal you! ), but I'm not sure how God will react. Making fun is okay, making fun of Him is an other...

/me anjoys the conversation and loves to see whe can agree with/disagree with/encourage each other.

 

Now lets talk about the people who dont get in heaven and why not

1) Will I go to heaven if I murdered 20 heathens in name of God?? They worked on sunday, wore clothes of more than one type of material, they played American football without gloves, they entered a church with poor eyesight, well hey it´s in the bible!!

2) Will I go to heaven because God or Jesus didn´t reveal himself or themselves to me, or poorly, ey God is wise and has mercy and there´s no such thing as free will, so God will understand, right??

3) What if I followed the bible with all my heart (I was Amish or something in that direction) and the suddenly it appeared I implemented the bible wrong, I should actually not have sold my daughter even though the bible approves it.. Go figure

4) I didn´t believe in God, because I was raised as a atheist, hinduist, budhist, etc. But I still served the community of <insert my religion> in a "good" way.

5) LPF style (Pim came, Pim saw, Pim conquered) heaven is full, sorry Morgoth but full is full, prob only Dutchies will understand

P.S.
A question to the Christians here, does God know everything??

[ January 16, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

1) Depends whether you asked for forgiveness or not. But it says that thou shall not kill.

2) No. Seek the truth. Believe.

3) Ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" If you don't get an answer, consult the Bible (consider the New Testament - the one with Jesus in it).

4) Question your religion. Ask yourself if it makes sense. And above all, do have faith, but only if it would provide fulfillment to your life.

5) I'm not Dutch. Won't get it, I guess.

P.S.) Yes. I figure he knows if I become atheist in the next 20 years and subsequently go to hell.

[ January 16, 2003, 23:54: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

@Morgoth: Yes, He knows everything and before it happens. Plainly speaking He just gets the full scope we can't imagine even due to our limited perception and understanding.

When Jesus tells us how to do to people, He doesn't distinguish Christians, Jews or any other group. Life is life, murder is murder, charity is charity, love is love, hate is hate. And it's God who decides who's going where. The Church is not. It's a part of doctrine based on illumination who's likely to go where, but it's still not like the Church decides. Although they have (Church=all adherents, not sole clergy) the ability to help or even help out at times. No human is to judge others in terms of salvation as he simply has no power in that.

 

Exodus 35:2 is very clear on this, sabbathworkers should be killed. So I should kill them, but I can´t because then I would go against the "Ten Commandments"..
So there´s a contradiction in the bible or I should wait till a hand comes down from the sky and strikes them down?

Why should I even ask forgiveness, I followed his word right?? BTW, how can I follow his word if his word is contradictional??

But if God or Jesus would have revealed themselves good to me, I would be Christian, just as the rest of the world.. So now I should blindly follow a religion?? Officialy there are +200 religions in this world, so the chance I come in heaven is less then 0,5% even though I always followed the word of my God

Remind that the bible has been rebridged for a few times and a couple of chapters about Jesus have been removed

Question my religion? Why don´t you??

It was a trickquestion

So God is omniscient, so God knows everything.. He even knows things he don´t know but that is logically impossible..
The same thing is with the old "God is omnipotent", this will mean that God can make a rock so heavy, God himself can´t lift it, but then God can´t still do everything..
Therefore the concept of omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent are logically impossible.
Now if you would say that God is above logic, he could make it so that 1+1=8373. Which just seems absurd to me.

If you´re now gonna say that God doesn´t know everything.. then by what right does he deserves the title "God"??

Because he created life?? Then I should call my parents "God" a scientist who just cloned a new animal "God".. Think of the question: What exactly is life??

[ January 17, 2003, 15:25: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

It's more like 'thou shalt not murder' in original text.

 

Well. This is certainly interesting.

There's so much to respond to, I don't know where to start. But how about with Laches...

First of all, to say that good is arbitrary (based on God's whims) or that it changes depending on His viewpoint at any given time is to lower Him to human standards. It's like the gods of the Greeks -- quarreling with each other, doing things out of spite or whimsy, changing sides, etc. But my God is no such. Infinite and eternal, He has no need of changing His mind; He's already seen the end from the beginning. So that point is moot.

Point # 2 sounds completely bogus to me, sorry. Let me rephrase it slightly: I am not good. If good comes from me, then I predate the good and therefore am outside of it. Therefore, good deeds done by me serve to prove that I'm not good??!?

As for #3 (good is unknowable outside of God), you're correct. See I Corinthians 2 for an exposition.

 

Try to see that differently: If you're not a Christian and have never heard about God, but do good, than you know God better than a Christian who has heard much of Him, but for example limits himself to not doing evil. This is what is actually meant, especially if another passages touching the subject are taken into consideration.

 

One thing I cannot repeat enough:
It's not about doing good, it's about faith and believing that Jesus did the job for you.
When you believe that, then you will do good. (John 15:5, the True Vine)

 

Chevalier, I don't understand where you're getting that. Could you please explain further?

It seems to me that the passage clearly states that without the spirit of God, you cannot understand the things of God.

Incidentally, Laches, after rereading your post, it seems that my interpretation of your comment about God predating good is not accurate, but on the other hand I'm not sure what you're driving at. Clarify?

[ January 17, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: Capstone ]

 

o_0

Limiting oneself not to do evil is doing good, so a heathen which does "good" things knows God better than a Christian that does "good" things. So to know God, you must be heathen who does 2good" things, I´m heathen who does "good" things and I see God as not excisting, so God does not excist



What is your definition for that "good"

[ January 17, 2003, 22:41: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Morgoth:

The Old Testaments says, "An eye for an eye." The New Testament says, "Turn the other cheek." I am Christian; I believe in the latter. I believe that Jesus' sayings should be followed - not all of those in the New Testament.

Secondly, I do question my religion. Do you think that religious people blindly accept their religion and spend the rest of their days living happily ever after 'til they die and go to Heaven? I wonder about God, Heaven, and life in general. I've lost plenty of sleep over it. But I still accept what Christianity's main message is.

Thirdly, what we suppose and what we know is nothing compared to the scope of infinity. Sure, the idea that omniscience and such are contradictory, but that amounts nothing in the face of belief. I believe what God says, and facts and proof don't alter that. I have faith knowing God more would lead to more answers that we can't explain.

Fourthly, a believer (not necessarily Christian, I suppose) knows more about God than an atheist. Why? Because he has faith in Him; he trusts faith, not works or deeds.

Finally, like Master of Nuhn said, what you do doesn't matter. One bad apple tarnishes the whole bunch; one sin among a million good deeds ruins the whole lot. That's the point of salvation.

You should understand that I'm not here to impose my religion on any of you. Religion is not a didatic white man tell you how to live your life so as to get to heaven.

It is God telling you to accept Him for a better life.

[ January 17, 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

To paraphrase an argument I believe started by Socrates:

If an omniscient God is in fact omniscient, on what does he base acts of good and acts of evil? Look no further than the Ten Commandments and you will have found God making judgments about what are and what aren't moral human actions. Why is killing someone evil? Why is idolatry evil?

Logically, there can be only two sources of this information:
1- God came up with these ideas arbitrarily. He just picked at random and said, "You go in the 'good' category, you go in the 'evil' category, blah blah."
OR
2- God drew upon something already in existence to decide what was good and what was evil. There was some standard by which "evil" things were harmful or somehow disrespectful to God, and he saw this.

In either event, God does not seem all that omniscient. The first renders him arbitrary, and the moral rules Christians use to guide themselves as equally arbitrary. The second states that God's moral mandates were simply interpretations of societal truths: i.e. killing is bad for humanity. These are things that can be plainly seen, so whether or not God decrees them to be so is inconsequential.

Can there be any 3rd choice? People have told me that "God simply knew." How did he know? Did no one tell him? Did he not base his decisions on logic, that if we were able to reason at his capacities, we would be able to plainly see it also?

Amon-Ra

 

Belief is thinking, not knowing, how can I believe in God while he has never revealesd himself to me??
Yup by blindly following a religion

Where did God come from anyway

[ January 18, 2003, 11:33: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

How could Socrates have started that argument as he lived in a polytheistic society long before Jesus and when the jews were just another grubby desert people among many?

Just another little point.
Didnt god exist before he was accepted amongst great parts of the world? How come that this desert people and their beliefs are more true than any others? And why did he only show himself to some people while the rest of the world lived in happy ignorance? As everything else it is about humans and coincidence. It wouldnt have taken much for us to still be worshipping whatever old gods we had before one freaky emperor decided that the christian god sounded like a nice chap. Or if the battle of Pointiers had been lost and Europe fallen completely under the mores then we would all be muslims now. Religion and faith is an erratic and arbitrary aspect of *humanity* which may points at some higher being but I doubt that any one church is more right than any other.

 

Not really a desert people then. Socrates died in 399 BC, that is 600 years after Jews united into a prosperous kingdom ca 1000 BC dived ca 926 BC and fallen 722 BC (Israel, North) and 586 BC (Judah, South). At the time Socrates lived they were sort of Persian protectorate or autonomy.

It's also not like that God was a desert tribe's idol like many others. He's not just a patron spirit chosen from a range of options. The true issue is monotheism and this is older than Jewish conceptions. As many Greek and then Roman philosophers logically deducted there being one god and referred to Him as (the) God, the same was possible for far more ancient civilisation. I don't really know of any monotheistic concepts in Mesopotamia, but in Egypt there had been present for a long time. Of course there's some difference between that and illumination, the latter being unquestionable once you believe in God and that the illumination comes from God and not your imagination or from the devil.