Life after death

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I hate to be the one to break it to you mate, but a world of atheists wouldn't be a world of anarchy.

It's that kind of reasoning that makes me loath religious people. I am an atheist, do I go around killing or raping other people? Do I break laws when I stand to benefit from it? Your unfounded accusations of what a society created by people like me would produce are absolutely moronic.

I respect other people because they respect me. I help other people because they help me. Is it beyond your puny mind to fathom a person having objective ethics without God? Read Rand, she's only written a half-dozen or so novels on the subject.

What you're saying is, without a God whose retribution you fear, you would run around and sate all of your carnal pleasures. But while he's watching you, you're gonna behave. And here I am, without a God to fear, and I behave like a civilized human being because I am wise enough to see that cooperation is beneficial to me.

That really says something about your moral character vs. mine, doesn't it? Namely, you don't have one, except for what is imposed upon you. In its absence, your humanity crumbles. You better carry that crutch the rest of your life, I'd hate to see you try and walk without it.

I am a good person. People like me are good people, honest, decent, helpful, godless. Think before you speak.

Now, back to the point~ can a world exist wherein God is good and evil at the same time, and people live without fearing God, but rather respecting eachother? If so, could it also not be that God simply doesn't exist? Or if he does, his presence makes no difference? Is this so IMPOSSIBLE to Imagine?

~the great John Lennon

[ February 01, 2003, 08:35: Message edited by: Amon-Ra ]

 

Oh great. it seems like you´re the one who need to give it some thought..

Now you´re saying that nothing has it attributes (eternal and void) too and therefore is an object, With everything people mean "everything", every object.. so now you´re saying that nothing is something too.

And I suggest you´re gonna read Kant, Nietzsche and Plato, wether you´re gonna wrap yourself up in a blanket of ignorance or not..
You might gonna need it

P.S.

- God is good
- God creates angels, angels are good (since they are the creation of God)
- Evil did not excist (how do you want to define the concept "good" without using the concept "evil" which did not excist by then??)
- Satan, an angel, creates evil out of good

 

Maybe my point is to disprove other peoples points, thus making my own point. My own point is precisly nothing. As in, you die, you decompose, you are gone. This reincarnation of yours is a wish for something better than what you have, or a fantasy made up against fear of the unknown. Or some other thing entirely, but so far I have seen nothing to make be believe in any afterlife, be it heaven or hell or something else entirely.
And yes, of course I understand what I'm saying. I wouldn't say it if I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm atheist, not an idiot

[ February 01, 2003, 15:17: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

Amon-Ra, what I thought I had implied, is that if there had been no belief in God (ANY God) there wouldn't have been laws in the first place. Now that laws have been established, the fear of God no longer plays a part in today's ethics, but the fear of legal retribution. You call me an unwise, thoughtless, inhumane person because you actually believe that my moral behaviour is derived from a fear of God? You should try getting to know me before making blind claims. I act according to MY morals, MY ethics, MY principles, which happen to coincide with those commanded by God. My moral code is not dictated by God or by anyone other than myself, or more to the point, my conscience. I do not avoid lying and stealing because I'm afraid God will punish me, but because these actions make me feel bad. I can also say that even without God I am a moral person, because I abandoned my faith a long time ago, and I was still an ethical, moral, good individual. I have lived with and without God, and the only real change is that with God I am sure of my options for an after life, without Him I spent countless hours trying to imagine an afterlife, but how can one imagine nothing?

I don't see how "eternal and void" are attributes that can't be attributed to eternal nothingness. I know that what I'm trying to convey to you is very difficult to convey, but please try a little harder to understand. The only time that I can think of in which human existance is reduced to absolute nothing, is in an uninterrupted dreamless sleep. Try to think of your last, uninterrupted dreamless sleep! IMPOSSIBLE! This is nothing. If you can fully accept the DEPTH of this and that you will spend eternity in this state (NOT existing) after you die, then please disregard anything else that I say because it will have no bearing on your opinion.

Aikanaro, thank you for giving me a straight answer. But please don't try to tell me why I believe in an after life. Fear of the unknown? A wish for "something better than I am"? I believe in an afterlife because I have faith that what is said in the Bible is true. To me, believing that nothing will happen after death simply makes absolutely no sense. To think that life is utterly pointless is ridiculous. I feel that a reward, a punishment or simply an alternative for what we do in life MUST exist. I did not say that you were an idiot, I just wanted to be clear that you completely understood the implications of what you were saying, because I've found that many, many people don't. This concept is either harder to understand than most people could possibly believe, or I am extremely stupid (considering that you three are the only three people who have actually not backed down in this type of debate with me would probably imply that the latter is not true).

 

Faerus, to prove my point, where, who, what were you before you were born?? Stated from the bible you follow..

If you´re saying that God created you when you were born, why can you accept the non-excistance of you before but not after??

If you´re saying that you already excisted, then God didnt create you, since you were already there before God

.....

That was the point I was trying to make, with nothing I mean nothing .. I cant even be named "nothing" since whats there to name??

With giving "nothing" the attributes "eternal" and "void" you´re seeing it as a object, you´re seeing nothing as a object.. while true nothing is the opposite of an object

[ February 01, 2003, 23:51: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

afterlife.. my chemical processes of decomposing will bring life to uncountable life sources, death breeding new life. Sad? Maybe, but I find the idea of paradise too illogical and outrageous to actually believe in. Would be neat though.

that is what I think of afterlife. Your brains storage database will cease to exist, no memory, emotions or essence will remain as far as I see.

God? Too hard to believe in due to all the different versions of his tale.

Superior entity? Maybe, but that isn't necessarily God. If we call it God, then not a God according to bible standards in my idealistic world.

Good and evil? Good would be something that helps out mankind, evil the opposite.

[ February 01, 2003, 23:55: Message edited by: Lokken ]

 

Stated from "the Bible I follow," I don't know because I've yet to read the Bible. If you want an answer according to the Bible, ask Mathetais, or a priest.
Unfortunately for myself (and the sake of my argument), I haven't given too much thought on that issue, namely since it is not one that is presented often (or ever). I guess I must concede that I was indeed nothing, before I was created by God (since I certainly didn't come before God). Although, being created from nothing is something that IS possible, the origin of our universe for example, so I may indeed be created from nothing, but I have seen no evidence at all of anything in this universe, *going back to nothing.*

I can accept the non-existance of me before, because I do not believe that once created, something can truly be wiped clean. There would be no point to living if we went back to absolute nothing.
I don't think this answer will satisfy you, but it will stand as my response until I think of something more...logical.

 

I'm sorry if any of my words were harsh, Faerus, but yours attacked the entirety of atheists, of which I am a part. You think that without God, society would have no laws? Are you mad? Laws of many tribal civilizations are based on Tooth and Claw, [might makes right], or as in the case of Confucism, wisdom and common sense. Laws as we know them TODAY might not be in existence, but can you honestly assert that without christianity, judaism, islam, greek pantheon, roman pantheon, hinduism, or any god-having religion, there would be no law at all?

One person rapes another mans sister, the second man hunts that man down and kills him. Common sense says, don't rape someone, even if you are sick enough to want to, because someone they know is gonna come looking for you. Is it not possible that without the concept of God, society today would still be lawful?

Also, as far as pre-existence and post-, you can create something out of nothing, but can't create nothing out of something?

 

Technically, you can do neither. As any high school student ought to know, matter and energy can be either created nor destroyed. But you knew that.

The "creation" of the universe was certainly not something from nothing. The known universe is theorized to have come from a super-dense ball of hydrogen exploding. Where this came from, what came before, and why it exploded are another question alltogether. My point is, we don't know. I simply prefer to leave it open and a mystery than to sy "God did it" and leave it at that. Then we close ourselves off to the possibility of truth by replacing it with faith.

To say that there would be no law without God is asinine. Law has been around a good deal longer than the concept of the Christian God I assure you. As far as religion, it certainly does go back to the known beginnings of society. Does that mean that all law is god-inspired? Well, by the Christian point of view they were all false gods. I don't think false gods do much talking, do you? Clearly having laws is like living in a society on a whole. It increases one's chances for survival.

Do I believe in an afterlife? No. But I'm willing to keep an open mind.

 

Amon-Ra, are there any thriving societies today that follow the Laws of "Tooth and Claw?" Even then, according to "might makes right," if you're mightier than everyone else, you can do whatever you want. This isn't quite so much a system of law, as much as it is animal instinct. You'll note that many animals that live in groups obey the same laws (lions for example). Does that make a pride of lions "law-based?" Laws based on basic instinct aren't very good laws. Confucianism bases its laws on Confucius' teachings, correct? His teachings were of wisdom and "common sense" right? Well, wisdom at least, since common sense is a purely relative term. What then, was the inspiration for his teachings? Was it his own wisdom? (I'm actually asking you. I don't know all that much about Confucius, so you might have to let me in on a little more info).

Yes I can. There would be no need for laws in the first place! I realize that you and many other atheists like you are very ethical, moral people. But is that because you were raised in a (mostly) ethical society? Or were you born with a conscience? The answer to the latter is definitely "no." Observe any budding infant, and you'll see that they are by nature, absolutely selfish and self-absorbed. Humans live only for their own gain and pleasure until they are taught by their parents (or guardians, or nannies, etc) that some things are good and others are bad, that they aren't the center of the universe. Thus, if a man's sister is raped, why should he care? He's the center of his own world, and as long as the rape doesn't affect him, he won't care. And even if he did punish the other man, it would be out of a sense that his territory is being encroached upon, not because he loves his sister. I'm trying to make the point, that without somekind of outside influence, humans aren't much better than untamed animals. An atheist is moral because his society teaches him to be, a person of faith is moral because their faith teaches them to be.
Sol'Kanar, I know that popular science claims that "neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed," but I view science with a very jaded eye, considering that a few centuries ago science "proved" that the earth was the center of the universe, "proved" that the earth was flat. Science is not absolute. The laws of "Conservation of Energy and Matter and Momentum, etc" apply on earth, yes. They apply everywhere that they've been tested, yes. But isn't it possible that there are exceptions to these laws? I'm not asking you to refute these laws, I certainly don't refute them, but try to consider that there is the possibility that the laws don't *always* apply. Then who would be shutting the door to other possibilities?
About the creation of the universe, the 3 questions you ask "where did it come from?" "what came before?" and "how it all began?" are 3 questions that science can't answer (and, IMO, *won't be able* to answer). Why is it that 3 questions that ONLY faith can answer are regarded as questions that shouldn't be answered? How else could a super-dense mass of hydrogen atoms, that weren't moving, all of a sudden start zipping around? And once the universe had been created, what was it that breathed life into dust? (just a couple of questions to mull over). Sol'Kanar, you must realize, that to billions of people, *faith is truth*.

I know, and I'd be a fool to say otherwise. But what I *am* saying, is that Law emerged after faith (not faith in God, but faith in some kind of supernatural being).

Here, I assume you mean "Christian point of view as I (You) understand it." I have often wondered whether "false gods" ("primitive" gods) were actually God's first (after the Banishment, if you believe in the story of Adam and Eve) attempts to communicate with humanity, thus these "gods" weren't really false, were they?

 

There really is no necessary connection between faith and law; one example of how law would come about without faith -- Thomas Hobbes. If you're really interested in one example you can read Hobbes, he's a good read anyways. A tad depressing, and in my opinion horribly wrong, but still a good read.

 

Only faith can answer you say? I think not, faith can only assume, as science can only assume. The difference is that science stays within human thinking while faith throws devine beings at us when they can't explain something and then claims that only a deity can know the answer.

And another thing, I almost never dream. Very boring of me I know. Is there any real reason why you can't stay in that state? Your body sure as hell isn't waking up at the end of it so why should your mind?

These next things have nothing much to do with the debate at all, but I like to put them in anyway
God Exists

And now for a quote to finish off:

"So, let's impeach god! I would like to announce my candidacy for the position of god; among other things, I promise to offer true and unquestionable proof of my existence, as the previous holder of the office of 'god' obviously failed to do."
-Rashind

[ February 02, 2003, 10:00: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

Well... explain me then how everything that is, became. How did it all start? Did time start somewhere? Or was all on earth, the earth itself and the universe just accidently formed? When you believe all this just came out of nothing, well that seems a very stupid thought to me... Evolution is not the anwer to the beginning of all and therefore also not on how it will be. Someone has to haver started time.... and has to be above time himself.

 

/me grins at Aikanaro's quote

Faerus, the void at the end of life isn't even a void. It just...isn't. But really, it doesn't matter, because we're not gonna be floating in gray stuff...our consciousnesses will have dissipated.

I think that men believe in God because they need some idea of ultimate salvation to hold onto...otherwise they'd go through what is known as a "crisis of faith" among you believers. They'd wonder, "what's the point".

If believing in God is comforting to you...or simply, if you believe in it...we're not trying to stop you, just get you to be more open-minded. What bothers me about the deeply religious isn't their faith - I find it something admirable that I have always been unable too emulate - but their lack of perspective.

Here's some philosophy for you...belief is different from conviction (go read some Plato if you don't get what I mean). A belief is justified...if not by empirical evidence, then by some sort of justification anyways. It would also be true independent of whether you believed it or not. Which means, that even if no one believed in God, he could still exist...but even if everyone believed in him, he might still be a figment of our imagination.

You simply don't accept other perspectives. You don't have to believe in them, only to accept their existence and their potential validity. Because we really don't know for certain. You said in a previous post, "God is good. Satan is evil." And that's that? Is it really as simple as that? Black and white?

Go read some Sartre. Find the essay, "Existentialism is a Humanism". I really do recommend it. I'm not trying to convert you or anything, but I have the impression that the look you usually give atheists makes them feel like they belong in a sewer, and this should at least make you respect us...there is no need to side with us.

Oh, and, Lokken..."good" is what's good for man, "bad" is what's bad for us? How naive. What about plants, trees, biosphere, etc? They may not be sentient but they are organic. And also...one man's good is another man's evil. I could kill you and take all your money...that's good for me, but is it really good for you? Really blunt example, but there are also more subtle ones.

I think man is prompted by an innate conscience, yes...and honestly, I doubt God put it there (although yes, it is a possibility!). Call it what you will...I don't know, "collective mind", "genetic memory of our Stone Age tribal cohabitation" (in which you probably didn't rape somebody's sister, you were too busy trying to survive, and one member of the tribe out of commission probably lessened the possibility of survival).

Also keep in mind that laws are not always good, or Christian. I read somewhere that in Kentucky it's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket on Sunday...did God proclaim that? Is it moral? Does it have ANYTHING to do with the survival and furthering of the human species on earth?

EDIT:
LOL, Bix, I took so long typing that you posted before I did. Anyways, did you know that there's an alternate cosmology theory that sais that it didn't all begin in a Big Bang, but that the universe is actually infinite...always existed and always will exist? That means there's no beginning, no end, and no creator!

[ February 02, 2003, 12:52: Message edited by: Tiamat ]

 

@Sol´Kanar

Can it be that time started at the "big bang" and therefore there was no before? In this time-world I mean

@Faerus

Yeah, but remember that the church had a great deal in punishing people for saying the earth was round, BTW two millenia ago the Greeks "proved" the earth was round..

Religion stopped the advancement of science, and claimed religion was true and therefore science.. The "science" you claimed science was not science but blind faith

Right back at ya, were did God come from?

If you really trust God, why don´t you jump of a building and see if he catches you, he loves you right??
Yeah, I know he works in mysterious ways

 

why does people seem to assume that there was nothing before something?

 

?? can there be anything other than something or nothing?

[ February 02, 2003, 14:53: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

I suppose it's because they haven't seen the mute while he was still talking.

 

Hobbes is a good read, I also suggest Rand- one work in particular:

"The Virtue of Selfishness"

It is an intrepid look at how someone can be entirely "self-absorbed" and "self-interested" but how those interests depend on the actions of others and therefore must be civilized and obey a certain code of objective moral ethics or else it would be detrimental to that person.

A man who needs corn shouldn't kill the farmer and take his corn, because he won't know how to grow more when the supply runs out. Cooperation and mutual restriction of certain deeds [essentiall, law] is beneficial to all involved, or at least that's the way it should be. Often times looking out for your interests means looking out for other people's interests too, because they can do the things you need them to do, like farming.

BTW: I never claimed the world needed love. Mutual fear and respect can do the same thing, only a little less pleasantly. Read Hobbes.

 

Hobbes, Rand, Plato, Confucius, Kant, Nietzsche, Kermit the Frog, and Mickey Mouse may all be a great read. But I'm not going to put all my beliefs on these men and their words.

I prefer Moses, Solomon, Mark, John, and Paul myself. They acknowledged God, and not just themselves.

"If you really trust God, why don´t you jump of a building and see if he catches you, he loves you right??
Yeah, I know he works in mysterious ways."

Where have we heard this before?

The the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down, for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you (Psalms 91:11,12) and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test. (Deuteronomy 6:16)'" - Matthew 4:5-7

As I said, read the Bible. It is not only a good read, but it can help move you to make the right choice.