Maybe i am getting too philosofic but...

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I can at least apreciate the point he is trying to make, even if I can barely decipher it from his grammar. I assume he wants a more truer version of a medieval setting, and I think that would be interesting. A lack of monsters and magic with just a more down to earth medieval adventure. I don't think he really wants exact realism, because, lets face it, realism is about as dull as it gets. I naturally like fantasy settings, because they obviously make the game a lot more interesting. I'd rather play your classic type D&D game, but a truer medieval style game could be fun as well. (just not as much fun IMO)

 

Sapyril, there is an upside to your medieval France scenario. After rerolling countless times your DM will tell you that you've wasted 600 years of game time and being a peasant has suddenly got a lot more interesting. Vive la France! Vive la revolution!

Incidentally, a pet peeve of mine for a long time was that entropy, a concept invented in the mid to late 19th century was well accepted, and people lived their lives by it, but "Round Earth Theory", which in the real world was proved in about 1000BC by a Greek bloke sticking two sticks in the ground, forgotten during the dark ages and accepted again in the 16th/17th centuries is a big controversial new thing. I was told that we don't have magic in the real world so we can't compare, but being a bittter pedant who can't admit to being wrong I thought. 1) Entropy is part of the science of thermodynamics which was developed during the industrial revolution when everyone was going crazy about making machines efficient. If you have magic, you have practically unlimited energy, so who cares?
2) Scrying magics would make the shape of the world obvious, no?
Someone talk some sense into me.

[This message has been edited by Ironbeard (edited May 05, 2001).]

 

Well concerning my grammar... Sory. As an excuse i would meantinon that if your native isnt english and if youre mad (which i was and am) then together it results in what you have read.
And my dear friend Sapiryl, i see that youre confused about "where in Hell did acid machinguns come from? The only game I know of with anything like that would probably be Fallout or Resident Evil. Dragon helicopter mutants? Until you brought it up, I never even imagined such a thing."
Let me explain you that ALL these things are fiction, they are made up by me as an instance. An Exagerated Instance of the way of BG2 designes/scenarists. If they will go on as they do in BG4 not later we will have all these acid-guns, helicoptodragons, Cursed-Grenades IN our beloved fantasy game style. Dont believe? Even now we have Shao-lin/kung-fu using monks punching our dragons!!!
I didnt say we MUST keep strongly to Medieval realism. NO! We must keep close to real fantasy: JRR Tolkien, Medieval Tales. (And they are based on medieval lifestyle, agree). Because Monks punching Dragons as well as possible following acid-guns, chopper-dragons are NOT fantasy! It is DELIRIUM.

As you, Sapiryl,wrote:
"And finally, you talk about the gaming industry bringing out a realistic game, and then you say that the perspective buying percentage is .05%? No company in the world would produce with that kind of a loss factor."
If market is segmented by number of customers target market is 0.05% of total.
But these 0.05% of people makes 20% percent of game industry turnover.
Those 40% who play solitaire spent NO money on games. Those who play some doom/quake/unreal at time to time spend 30$ on games (at best) annually.
Those 0.05% spend... you all know how uch you spend...
If u want further detailed economic analysis of this eventual game - just ask. Ill try to do my best.

And Sapiryl, you also wrote:
"Medieval France, about 1160 AD. Ten percent of the population is royalty. Fifty percent of that is the jousting, drinking, adventuring gentry."
I am sory to say but this total historical illiteracy.
1st. Royalty is only king and his family. So these CAN NOT BE 10% of population. Lets replace royalty with nobility.
2nd. Let us assume nobility is 10% of population. Every average noble would have 9 servants then. I am afraid that by year 1160 AD average number of servants per noble was about 100. It reduced later though.
3rd. So half of this 1% is jousting and adventuring. Well ok. Half of them are men. I would just correct that because of uninterrupted military collisions male population was for sure less than a half.


P.S. I look at monk swinging his fists on dragon, I look on diablo char in riders arms running through the jungle... and salty tear mists my eye... And i want to yell: DO ALL OF YOU REALLY THINK THIS IS OK?

How was my grammar this time?



[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 08, 2001).]

 

Your grammar is getting better.

However, I think that your economic analysis is a bit off. Last I knew, Unreal Tournament sold at $55 for six months, then dropped off to $45 for a couple of months. This is almost the same for Quake 3, BG2, and Diablo.

However, shortly after Warcraft 2 entered stores, a game was put into development: Lord of the Realm 2. Based quite a bit on Warcraft, LotR2 featured crop rotation, castle building, resource management, castle conquest, plagues, real *historical* combat simulation, etc.

The combat was based on history. Horsemen were fast, macemen were fast, swordsmen were all around good, pikemen were slow, etc. However, the game was too realistic. It entered the market at $40 and dropped to $30 in two months. Within eight months, you could buy it for $10.

The concept was great, but since that game, no medieval game has entered the computer game market with half as much realism.

And no, monks are realistic as far as realism is concerned. Monks in the orient created unarmed combat, and their fighting techniques affected combat in Eastern Europe as early as the Roman Empire. Finally: Helicopter dragons are not going to exist in a D&D game. All BG games are based on D&D, and there are no specifications for machine guns and modern technology. Metal sewers and lightning balls do not exist in the D&D rule books either, but bear in mind that these are fantasy games and not meant to be completely realistic.

 

Oooohhhh Boy. I can sit and read this thread all day, but start bad mouthing monks and then it's time for the Good Lord Moeken to step in!

It seems that Casio has become the victim of stereo typical ideas and has pigeonholed himself to the point that he is not being mentally flexible anymore. I reverse your arguement Casio and say how dare your armour clad knights infiltrate my fantasy world of karate and dragons!
The whole point of a fantasy world is to appeal to dreamers and thinkers as you have mentioned, however not everyone does so in the manner that you portray. Don't get pissed because people don't share your views. Variety is the spice of life.

Oh, and your poor grammar - no problem. I can appreciate that English is not your first language, I'd hate to try to converse in your native tongue, whatever it may be.

 

Yes kasio, you seem to be very mentally inflexible.

You only seem to be trying to justify your likes and dislikes to us. There is nothing philosophical to it. You consider Tolkien "true fantasy". That's okay. The Lord of the Rings was good. You consider other works trash because certain things in them offend you. Okay. Just know that we are not as compelled as you are to hate these things.

For example, ninja turtles-kensai and chopper-dragon mutant sounds sappy and I hate campy stuff, but if I were allowed to perversify and turn them to my vision of a dark and gritty setting, I would like it.

Red pianos can be good for atmosphere. So too can a Mechanan clockwork cannon with incendiary warheads look sufficiently menacing even though it might only be a +3 vorpal machinegun with fire damage. Shouldn't it be all in the implementation?

It seems that you are actually lamenting the dearth of "true fantasy" games but ended up critisizing the better RPGs undeservedly.

 

Amen.

Consider that seconded and thirded. (Shit is there such an expression even if the word should exist?)

Open mind I think might be key here. I'm sure shadowkeeper could always colour them green if red is offensive?

 

Thats true. I am lamenting the death of true fantasy. Because it was beautiful. what you call a fantasy now is actually a delirium (i like this my expression ).
About my mind inflexibility - yes seems it is inflexible. But why should i flex my mind to what i organically dislike? I hate monks punching firebreathing dragons! i want dragons head chopped down by hourse mounted cavaliers hand holding magically enchanted family sword!
Maybe i define what annoys me in this game and why and after you judge it. Try to flex my mind. And I will try to flex yours.
*Sinlge lined world map - freely explorable map gave FREEDOM, feeling that game is much bigger... and better.
*Monks - martial artists doesnt fit in here. If this is hong-kong-karate movie, they are acceptable, but not in here. (as well as for instance black basketball players).
*Huge-Metal-Made-Sewers - Well sewers was first introduced in ancient Rome (2000 BC) but these were oak made pipes with diameter of about 1 feet. Every metal molecula was a
treasure in time BG2 adventure goes on. And why should be there a 10 feet diameter serers? whats the purpose? Plus - I play a role of paladin and cavalier - i am and feel noble. Why should i crawl sewers? i want to fight appropriate enemies (other knights, dragons(i almost love them in BG2), mages, hordes of outlaws/thieves, ogres, barbarians, giants)! I am a knight not a peasant or Mario/Luigi!
*red pianos - some say they make a feeling - no THEY KILL A FEELING! When BG2 action went on THERE WERE NO such musical instrument! it was introduced same time as gunpowder i suppose.
*Kensai - same as monk, but much more acceptable for me.
*Myconoids - I AM KNIGHT NOT MARIO TO FIGHT MUSHROOMS!!!!! (actually myconaids are just most ridiculous (i have yet met) monsters, but there are also lots of other bad choices.
Generally - game needs more careful monster selection or BG will end as diablo. (what monsters did you encounter in pen&paper rpgs btw?)
*Geanies - influence of eastern culture. true fantasy must be Tolkien/Early Medieval Europe.
*Wakizashi/NinjaTo - we are knights not ninjas, we need bastart/two handed sword and family shield and HONOUR, not nunchaki or fists!!!
*Katanas - as swords tese are good and i like them better than wakizashi-ninjato, BUT STILL.
*Scimitars - almost acceptable, but almost...
*City architecture - Try to reads in Wizards of the Coast web page, how fantasy city architecture must be formed. Every house, every arch, every detail is tought trough and designed according to resident race culture analysis. (E.g Half-Elf palace blueprints in WotC homepage)
*Too few NPC - to make good, interesting and non-linear parties there must be at least 30-50 NPCs (at least 2 for every kit,multiclass,dualclass)
*Lack of horseback riding - paladin, cavalier with no horse????? Taunt of a cavalier!
*Experiece cap - there must be a cap if we assume that our journey will continue in NWN (Talauntain daubts it thouh, but i disagree), BUT this cap must be at least twice as high.
*Too few merchans with considerable magical items - there are 2 merchants only i guess...
*Too much exp for quests, too little for monsterslaughter.
*Irenicus dungeon sucks - too long and one dimenional. (I hate those guys in glass flasks. There were almost no glass (and no technology to make such a flask ofcourse) in time when BG adventure goes on. So Irenicus dungeon look like Vault from Fallout1/2. just plug a computer in corner
*Jaheira is proficient in Clubs, but there are no magical clubs in the game (not sure, but definitely in early stages there are NO such clubs
*There is only 1 main city in the game. I would like 3-5.

Writing this i had to remember all these terrible things. I think i will add more, when my heart stops to bleed.

And Sapiryl, I did Lords of Realm 1, and 2. LoR2 sucked, BUT not because of realism (it didnt claim for realism btw) but because of sucky engine / gameplay. War 2 was pure arcade RTS. LoR2 was economic strategy + RTS (during combat). Totally different target markets. You can not compare them nor their sale results.

And Orkrist the Cleaver, indeed some themes of music ir good. BUT have you heard the music from Heros of Might and Magic 3??? That is music fantasy game should have!!!
And dont be afraid, if they removed piano from inn, music would not disappear as well.

Steping towards my grammar brilliance.
Kasio



[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 09, 2001).]

 

Kasio,

I think you are confusing desire with reality. There are lots of things that we would like to see in fantasy game but the programmer don't have time to put them in. A few of your points are simply opinion so I'll stay away from them. After all your opinion is yours to have.

As for the other;

Having horses would be real cool. I don't think anyone would disagree with you but it's a programming issue. I takes lots of time to write the code for the graphics, thus the designer has to make a choice about what go in and what stays out.

Having 3 to 5 major cities is an extreme example of the about statement. They want to release the game while the technology is still current.

More NPCs is the same issue. If takes memory and CPU power to have all those NPCs. They are talking about 'crowds' in ToB using new 'off screen killing' of NPCs but again it's a programming time problem. If you had you prefect RPG it would never be done and thus never make money. Remember computer game design are around to make money. If they don't there are not games at all.

All your XP issues are about game balance. BG2 was not designed to be a pure hack-slash game. If you want that go play IWD. Therefore quests are an important part to the game and worth XP. Was thinking to hard for you in the game? And a XP cap is always needed to 'limit' characters leveling. Again a game and only handle so many rules and abilities and thus a upper limit must be set.

Kasio, I think you need to think a little more about your points before you make them. The gaming companies, or atleast some of them, want to make great games. The questions is how much are you willing to pay?

 

I'm not comparing Warcraft 2 and LotR2. I was just setting the date of release in perspective. And personally, I thought the animations in LotR2 were very good.

In fact, the Adrenaline Vault gives LotR2 four stars out of five. This is the Siege Pack rating, but the Siege Pack entered the market with the same price and the same results.

 

Voltric u say:
"More NPCs is the same issue. If takes memory and CPU power to have all those NPCs."
Each measely goblin has almost as much stats as our npc's! What are you talking about, what a cpu power! Even BG1 had almost twice NPC as was in BG2! npc's dont consume much cpu resources. they have so little of them in bg2 because of deadlines and policies like "lets make game simpler. lets make game more user friedly. also 8 years old must be able to play and understand it!" and so on.

 

Kasio,

Are you talking about NPCs that can join your party or all NPCs (everyone in the game who is not a monster)? If you are refering to the NPCs that could join your party you are nuts. EACH NPC in BG2 had more scripting than ALL the NPCs from BG1 combined. That is why there were less NPCs in BG2. And if you don't think all that scripting takes programming time and memory space than you have a limited grasp on programming and game design.

If you are talking about non-joinable NPCs, than the more in any one area at once the more CPU and memory needed to maintain them. Again a basic operating concept of programming.

If you want to argue about opinions that's fine but please check your facts before you make sweeping statements. Otherwise there is no point in continuing this thread.

[This message has been edited by Voltric (edited May 09, 2001).]

 

I don't know about all the background but Athkatla is a major trading city is it not? Therefore influences from foreign cultures are acceptable IMHO. Given the level of Oriental weapons/classes etc, a sort of Kara-Tur town, possibly near the docks with lots of Kara-Turan architecture would have made them more acceptable. The glass could have been made and shaped by magic, and we accept potions in glass bottles. I personally want to see more Dwarves and loads of big forges etc, but we can't have everything we want. And, Age of Empires is a reasonable historic RTS.

[This message has been edited by Ironbeard (edited May 09, 2001).]

 

I'd like to comment on at least a few of the issues raised by Kasoi. Mind you I am not bashing your feelings on the game, just stating a counter opinion.

-non-linearity: I can see how this might be apealing. A lot of people like this in a game. But I don't see the problem with being led down a storyline. BG2 is a story filled game. If you were just allowed to do whatever you wished, whenever you wished, how would the storyline progess effeciently? And if I may say so, doing whatever whenever would either lead to a far too easy cookie cutter game where any character could do just about anything, or it would lead to a lot of frustrated constantly dying gamers wondering why they were allowed to stumble onto this dragon at 9th level. And even with freedom, games don't get much bigger than BG. I'm not sure what you want there.
-Eastern themes: I can understand this as well. But really, the designers didn't just make this stuff up. All the weapons and the monk class are straight out of D&D, which, if you didn't notice, is what BG2 is.
-Metal sewers-if you don't like them, you don't have to go in them. There are only 4 quests that are sewer related, none of wich are critical to the game. And incidently, exactly what time did BG2 take place? I'm having a hard time converting the roll of the years into actual real time
-Pianos: Well, D&D weapons do make use of primitive gunpowder, so why can't there be pianos. Again, this is fantasy, so I'm not sure how real time actually affects it.
-Myconds and monsters: most monsters (if not ALL) monsters in the game are, concept wise at least, straight out of the D&D monster manual. I'm not sure what you want for "realistic monsters", as *guess what* there are no monsters! And what exactly is true fantasy? Are you saying other people's fantasies aren't true fantasy, and that the only true fantasy out there is either youre or Tolkein?
-City architecture: I thought the buildings and scenery in BG2 were just beautiful, possibly some of the best ever done. I don't think whatever is on the WotC site is the be all-end all of how you MUST do architecture. It's a great guide I'm sure, but everything in D&D is open to interpritation. I thought the design team did very well desiging habitats for all the different races in the game.
-experience cap: the cap is raised in the expansion. Rember the game is supposed to be a trilogy. If the cap were doubled for this game, what in the world would the designers do for the final instalment? And if you disagree with the experience given out in the game, where would all this extra experience come from to justify such a huge cap? And no, your journeys really won't continue into NWN. You can imprort your character, though you would have to change him quite a bit for the 3rd edition rules. And you will not keep your exp, so I don't see how that has anything to do with the cap.
-Merchants: I'm not sure how every merchant would be able to get ahold of items with considerable magical power. I think there are plently available as is.
-Irenicus' Dungeon: Fine, I agree completely.
-Jahiera: There are some nice clubs in the game, though I never used them. Besides, she will have enough opertunity to take proficiency in whatever you want in the game. I prefered scmitars myself.
-Main city: 3-5? Good lord. How many CD's would you like with that?

Well that's all I have to say about that for now. Again, these are just my thougts, not how a true fantasy game should be

-

 

Let's make it (BG2) able to be played by an eight year old? Don't know about you, but Alpha Centauri is the only game I know that couldn't be played by an eight year old. My seven year old brother plays Jane's F-15 fighter simulation, and the manual is like a full scale book! And, BG2 is intended for fourteen year olds and up (says so on the box).

Truthfully, animations and NPC generation take up most of the memory requirements in a game. Trust me, I'm only a Sophomore in college, but I can appreciate the amount of work that goes into an if-then-else structure. I might be able to program the AI for one single Drow Warrior in, oh say, a year? And how many Drow are in the game? Truthfully, I think that the scripting and the character development was superior in BG2.

No, I'm not trying to break your balls (anymore), but as a programmer, I have to say that BG2 NPCs are some of the best made in the industry.

 

Voltric,
I am talking about npc who can join you. You say: "EACH NPC in BG2 had more scripting than ALL the NPCs from BG1 combined."
Well what can I say... You can either exaggerating either have poorest understanding of game developing i have ever encountered.
"And if you don't think all that scripting takes programming time and memory space than you have a limited grasp on programming and game design."
NPC's who join you have common scripts (AI), but even these scripts are not used, but controlled by player. As for RAM and CPU resource usage - only active npc's (6) use it. Those who stand and await recruiting takes disk space only. So if more join-you-NPCs are implemented only disk space needed for game would increasse. Lets calculate how much space! Voice packs - about 2mb each (lets asuume they will have no quests (as minsc&boo) and will be quite passive), Portraits - 0.056+0.004 mb, one string in code: place_npc "John the Cool Fighter-Mage"; Copper Coronet. will take no considerable disk space. 3 sentence dialogue (like Wanna join? Yea, No.) will take 0.001mb
Did i forget to mention something?
Ok. So one additional character would take 2.061 mb. lets multply ir with my desired additional npc number 25, result is 51.525 Mb. Well disk space used by three Doom2. BUT BG2 takes 2.5 GB. So additional 52 mb will change NOTHING!!!! BUT will make game more interesting, complex and take longer to develope. And thats where shitty companies policy comes up! We have to finish until Christmas, We have to finish before competitors! We must cover also 8years old audience... And this results in... in.. measely 16 npc's!!! When in BG1 was almost twice as much!

Ironbeard,
"I don't know about all the background but Athkatla is a major trading city is it not?Therefore influences from foreign cultures are acceptable IMHO."
1stly, Athkala is THE ONLY city. But the point is that there are so many influences of so called cultures (i would say bad taste of a designer though) that Athkala looks like insane mosaic made by drunken goat.
"level of Oriental weapons/classes etc, a sort of Kara-Tur town, possibly near the docks with lots of Kara-Turan architecture"
Designers definitley havent thought so far but let it be.
"The glass could have been made and shaped by magic, and we accept potions in glass bottles."
One thing is glass potions(which are ok), huge another is glass containers. Glass containers make J.I. dungeon look like a alien ship from Independence day. Even worse, they should better put refrigerators there, powered not by electricity but by magical means (i bet you would explain me that way). Glass containers make feeling of science fiction to replace the feeling of fantasy/tale. If I wanted to play science-fiction I would play Fallout. Which game should I play if i want to play fantasy/tale?
"I personally want to see more Dwarves and loads of big forges etc, but we can't have everything we want."
Great idea. More Cromwells. eg. I meet a dwarve, pay him 7000 gold and he promises to smith a handsome sword for me (without explaining a details). I return in a two weeks and collect my +4 bastard... Nice...
"And, Age of Empires is a reasonable historic RTS."
Now that makes me laugh . This is just slightly improved war2 and doesnt even try to claim to reflect REALISM!!!!

Crawl,
"But I don't see the problem with being led down a storyline. BG2 is a story filled game."
Mario bros also was led by VERY strong story line. I though that freedom of actions is what serious rpg tend to. eg Fallout. I dont speak about pop-rpgs like Diablo.
"If you were just allowed to do whatever you wished, whenever you wished, how would the storyline progess effeciently?"
Look in Fallout.
"And if I may say so, doing whatever whenever would either lead to a far too easy cookie cutter game where any character could do just about anything, or it would lead to a lot of frustrated constantly dying gamers wondering why they were allowed to stumble onto this dragon at 9th level."
Look in Fallout. You face a dragon, you can avoid it. Come back later. Glad this is possible even in BG2.
"And even with freedom, games don't get much bigger than BG."
Not bigger but better. More addiction. More fun.
"Eastern themes: ...the designers didn't just make this stuff up. All the weapons and the monk class are straight out of D&D..."
Yes I know the background. And that doesnt make monks less sucky. You argue with me poor newbie kasio. would you argue with d&d/game developing/true-rpg-guru Gary Gygax (who fought with greedy developers who wanted to implement insane rules (monk, kensai etc) to increase audiniece and profit sacrifying BEAUTY of ad&d). As he said:
"You sort of lose the heroic questing and the archetypes in new Dungeons & Dragons, I'm afraid. 2nd Edition... well I didn't like it as much as the original. Some people liked it better. They lost about half of their audience, though, when they came out with 2nd Edition." http://www.cdmag.com/Home/home.html?article=/articles/032/127/010507-f2.html

[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 10, 2001).]

 

May I please ask you Talauntain to get in the deeper debate of sound sets & scripting. Feel free to make me look an absolut ignorant if u can.
Path towards Enlightenment is always full of thorns.
I dont mind that characters now have a lot of scripting (if event then respont else not respont and so on, that it covers practically everything what is happening during the game). Why cant there be more passive characters with less scripting (no romances, no quests etc etc) BUT with nice stats, nice classes, multiclasses and so on.
I want to make an interesting party also for monster fighting not only romances, quests and such stuff!

And I read a link you posted above...
Great and interesting description i admit, really:
"Athkatla, the City of Coin, is the capital, oldest city, and mercantile and social center of Amn. As the seventh busiest port city of Faerûn, business is its lifeblood, and anything or anyone can be bought or sold here. The law here is often blinded by the glint of gold."
When i read this decription a great city appears in my imagination! What a pity that this is a good story behing nothing. When i walk in the Athkala in my PC i see nothing of this... And there is no fault in my poor imagination as you just prepared to say... ed Fallout has MUCH less resources, MUCH less graphics, BUT with STILL it maintained the FEELING of the game. The objective of designer and programmer is not to draw, render and script everything! They must show the main lines to help players imagination. But here in BG2 they have messed, screwed these lines, so it is impossible for my imagination to function! What A RED PIANOS! WHAT A MONKS PUNCHING DRAGONS!!!!

"Every product traded in the Realms Above (and many from Below, the Underdark) is available in this city-for a price."
Well written! BUT dont I see these great artefacts in the game??? There are only 2 considerable traders (cc&am)!!! And 90 percent of the game all you get from those promised goods are measel gride of H G str and tower shield +3 and some bows? Nice story BEHIND NOTHING!!!!

[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 10, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 10, 2001).]

 

Was it this message that should make me absolut ignorant?
Talauntain: "It is either ALL of them that way (as was mostly the case in BG1), or NONE of them that way (like BG2)."
No way! Now thats not true! Make them story involved: Nalia, Valygar, Jaheira OR make them passive efficient fighters, mages. Like Minsc, even more passive. Let them be concentrated on their skill and muscle gaining not love romances!

"And if you don't like the NPCs provided with the game, you can always create your own in multiplayer"
I know this. And I will definitely do this. But why couldnt BG2 developers do that? Twenty or so additional NPC's would have spiced this game up, dont you agree?

Hmm btw you sound confused in your previous post:
Talauntain:
"(As if anyone needs 25 NPCs).
Sure, it would be nice to have that many to choose from..."
So it would be nice, interesting to choose from 25 npc but who the hell needs nice and interesting choices. Well... now thats complex...


[This message has been edited by kasio (edited May 10, 2001).]