Most of us agree that Sorcerers are the most powerful... but

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I think we're also forgetting something - equipping an item (eg: Staff of the Magi) will interrupt a spell if it's being cast, rendering it useless. Luck and timing will play into this battle as well, even if you have the maximum spell casting time reduction effects going, all it will take is one hit to inflict a casting penalty (and for things like Imprisonment, that would be more like two or three hits, minimum). Care to take a chance, anybody?

What can stop/prevent the casting failure penalty? Does Mirror Image work? Also, can you inflict spell failure chance with an area-effect or magical attack (for example, a Magic Missile scroll)? Finally (and most important, in my opinion), does SI: Abjuration prevent Protection From Magic scrolls from being cast on you? These, I feel, are the central considerations for this battle. Whoever gets their trick off first will win this battle, but won't be able to do it so easily as they might think they could.

If we include items, I think the WS/T has a very good shot at killing the Sorceror. I don't think anyone would deny the power of the dual-class thief in a player-vs-player confrontation. Of course, the WS/T could just detect illusions, use a scroll of Protection From Magic on the Sorceror and beat him to a pulp that way. Sure, the Sorceror bolts until the effect expires some number of turns later, but how are you going to survive an enemy that sees through your magic and which you can't detect or outfight without your magic - and which doesn't have to damage you to cripple you?

 

@Scythe: unless your Wizard Slayer is equipped with a bow, he stands little chance against a good Sorcerer.

I'd like to see how your Wizard Slayer can cope with Time Stop, or Chain Contingency: Sunfirex3 at 75% HP.

 

I dont understand how can anyone think the sorcerer could win. The WS/T has all kind of ability that the Sorcerer has, thanks the HLA. Plus the Thief and Wizard Slaying abilities.

The thief always walks in shadow. When spots the enemy sorcerer immediately runs behind him. This time is not enough to cast True Sight. So the WS/T has the first hit - but maybe the second and third also. (Dont mind the stoneskin, the 10% penalty just ignores it.) After that they can use the same tactics, just with the 10%-30% difference. That's a lot. (Dont forget the WS/T can cast everything from scrolls)

And the WS/T can run away anytime and the Sorcerer can't follow him/her because with that he/she would risk running into a trap.

I can even imagine a hit&run tactic also. Spot the sorcerer, fire 2 arrow, run, wait until the chained spells disappear than do that again and again. Thiefs are not straight fighters at all. They would act like this I think. Soon the sorcerer will spoil all of his/her spells....

 

I'm glad opinion is devided... I myself think it is too close to call.

@LdyWench... I play a sort of mainly solo sort of game... I tend to grab people as I need them. I do their quests with them then dump them.
By the time I got UAI all the other characters are almost useless. They just sort of stand around waiting for me to kill things with my lead character.

Strangely Aerie is the best one to tag along for the longest periods... Since I've loads of equipment she's got over 60 hps.... and of course can cast loads of different spells. When fully buffed she is actually a reasonable tank

 

In this instance, I'd have to say that the Wz/Thf would beat the Sorcerer...though it pains me greatly to say it, Sorcs being my favorite class and all.

UAI is just too cheesy...

 

@ Greystar: And how are you going to spot him, let alone hit him? The WS/T will be hiding and using a Cloak of Non-Detection, making him completely invisible. The guy can load up all the defensive items he will ever need before attacking, and since it's easy to make yourself immune to elemental damage, all the WS/T needs is to get close enough to use his Protection From Magic scroll ON the Sorceror. Chain Contingency anything you want, it can be defended against (probably Sunfire or Abi-Dalzim's, both of which can be reduced/stopped easily with magic and fire resistance) - and if it doesn't kill the WS/T, kiss your Sorceror goodbye as the WS/T switches to a ranged weapon and hits you ten times before wiping the floor with your now-magic-less Sorceror. Hell, doing that doesn't even require UAI...

@ Valer: Wish spell with a high-Wisdom Sorceror will frequently allow a full recovery of all spells cast. Given enough time, he will run out, but there's no guarantees of when. The problem in a Sorceror v Anybody Else battle is that the non-sorceror can't afford to just take everything the Sorceror will throw at them first - a full barrage will wipe you out. Of course, since you can stop him from ever being able to cast it, it should be almost a moot point.

 

Hello -

@Geoff:

Vecna does not speed up spells cast from scrolls. The sorcerer is going to have a huge casting time advantage.

@NonSequitur:

I doubt this could ever happen to a competent sorcerer. All the sorcerer would need to do is instacast invisibility (or use contingency to insta-cast it without Vecna), and the WS/T would get a "can't cast a spell on invisible target" message and would lose his scroll, too.

IMO a sorcerer played to the fullest will steamroll anything else. It's possible for the sorcerer to win fights with the game PAUSED, for god's sake! UAI may be cheesy but emptying half of your spellbook with the game paused is even more so.

 

IIRC, we had this same discussion on the Berserker vs. Sorcerer thread. After play testing, it was discovered that a mage or sorcerer can still cast spells after protection from magic is cast upon him. Evidently, the Protection from Magic only affects incoming magic, not outgoing magic.

Another thing to consider is where is the fight taking place? Are we in a fighting pit, or an area where a character can roam around?

 

One thing that could really tilt the fight in favor of the wizard slayer would be the use of Vhailor's Helm - let the clone do the initial work while the w/s helps out in the background (eg detect illusions), and have the w/s come in later if needed.

I know a simulacrum scroll would accomplish the same thing, but then the scroll is gone; the Helm is still available for future battles.

 

BTW, can a wisard slayer use the cloak of non-detection without UAI?

 

@The Shaman: Nope

 

If you want to do it that way, then I can always use my Staff of the Magi & Cloak of Non detection (it won't disrupt your spellcasting if you know how to wield it).

And if you use the scroll of protection from magic on me, I will just make myself invisible and run away for 10 minutes and wait for your protection to wear off. And when it does, it takes little skill to finish the match.

The only weapon the WS/T has over the Sorcerer is trap, which can be disabled using summons (invisible stalker or mordy sword come to mind)

[ December 02, 2004, 04:17: Message edited by: Greystar ]

 

Was wondering why it hadn't come up again. Must be a bugged scroll - it's supposed to stop all spellcasting and spell effects on the target.

Detect Illusions penetrates everything, IIRC - even that vicious SI: Div + Mislead combo. Make no mistake - I don't think it'd be easy, I just think the basic WS/T should be able to go 50/50 with a basic sorceror. After all, there are so many variables to take into account - spell selections, items, location, preparation time - that will potentially shape the result.

Depending on the timing, I'm not sure you'd get the chance - those scrolls go off extremely quickly, and you wouldn't be visible until the actual point at which the scroll was used. Interesting timing question - will have to ask around about it.

 

And Cloak of Non detection prevents all detection spells, and I mean "run away", not just hide.

 

@Greyster... Detect illusion is not a spell .

It is my belief it is superior to true sight in this respect... But both only work once a round. That is a long while in this sort of battle!

 

@Greystar: Summoning anything won't help the Sorcerer. Clever WS/T would set a spike trap and a time trap in pairs. Summoned creatures would just provide some time for the WS/T to pump arrows to the sorceror.

Mages must be still and of them summons otherwise they risk the time trap... How many Imprisonment spells can be memorized at that level? Because I think that is the only spell what dont cares the MR and effective enough.

But that would happen if the WS/T just surrounds the Sorcerer with traps just on the edge of the seen area and than starts casting Cloud Kills, Fireballs, and every other things to the middle? To the war of fog...

 

Which is why we need to set conditions before we can describe this.

Are we in a fighting pit or an open area?

Are we alllowed to totally pre-buff before a battle, or is this just like running into each other where you wouldn't have time to do things like set exact Chain Contingencies and Time Traps all over the place?

There are certainly more, but these are two basics that have to be answered prior to talking specifics.

 

I couldn't agree more Aldeth... Needless to say as the originator of this thread I'm satisfied that the fight would be a close one and the layout of the arena and the skill of the player would be important...

...therefore Ive changed my previously held belief that in a one-on-one a sorceror would easily beat all comers (largely held as a result of the beserker vs sorcerer thread).

Anyone else got a class that could give either of these two a good workout in a one-on-one. Cue a Scythesong Immortal 'blade' rant

 

I think we should follow the style of the game.

I mean just walking in dungeons, towns and forests when suddenly you face with a Sorcerer or WS/T in a red circle. (Maybe he/she is just doing the quests as you do too...) What do you do at that moment? Just the difference is that your enemy is as clever as you are...

We have to collect all the areas in BG2+ToB and roll with dice, which will be the current one. Of course twice bigger area should have twice bigger likelyhood. Junctions like inns and frequently visited places must be more likely too...

 

Funny thing is that if these two characters were in the same dungeon chances are they would walk straight past each other as both would have invisibility up