New Immigration Law

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Oh, no, I was not aware what the word meant, sorry. I, and everyone I knew, certaintly didn't feel that way...

 

If it really were a melting pot, then the language and cultural issues would not be a problem, would they?

Many countries have more than 1 official language, large or small. Besides, I am sure many US citizens can speak at least some Spanish.

 

I'm with Saber on this one. Perhaps the author felt like this, or perhaps people who he knew felt like this, but neither myself nor anyone I knew personally were happy, or gloating, or whatever other similar word you want to pick to describe the riots in France. Quite to the contrary, most people I knew thought it was a terrible thing.

This sort of goes back to what I was saying before. Having a different language or culture is usually NOT a problem. However, there are some expectations in the U.S. regarding immigrants, and it's basically the same rules that our ancestors followed. (By "our" I mean anyone who can trace their ancestry back to some other country, where they eventually immigrated to the U.S. So this counts pretty much everyone from European decent, although I'm not sure if it's fair to call people of African decent "immigrants" as many of them didn't come here willingly.) Specifically, it's expected that even if you never learn how to read and write English, that you'll send your children to school, and they will learn. It is expected that immigrants will be fully integrated into society within two generations.

Technically speaking, while the vast majority of Americans speak English, the U.S. has zero official languages. For example, if you arrest someone, you cannot formally take them into custody until they have their rights read to them in a language they can understand. So, if you arrest someone who only speaks Swahili, you can detain them, but you can't formally bring charges against them until you find someone who can tell them their rights in Swahili.

I have no idea what number of Americans speak Spanish as a second language, but I do know that it is the most commonly learned second language in the U.S. I studied it for a bit in high school, but it's been years since I've had any need to use it, and as such I've probably forgotten 90% of what I learned. About the only thing I remember is how to say numbers, and basic words like "I", "you" (erm... the Spanish version of them) and the like.

I think the other thing that has to be pointed out is that for most people in the U.S., we don't have to deal with a large illegal immigrant population in our daily lives. The illegal immigrant population is concentrated in the southwestern portion of the country, in states like Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and southern California. I live in the northeast, and I don't know anyone who only speaks Spanish. In fact, here Hispanics aren't even the largest minority group (those of African decent are).

 

To me the rioting in France had nothing to do with glee. Instead it was a wake-up as to our future if we keep doing the same things.

 

Saber, I have seen more tri-colour flags in Boston than I see in the Republic of Ireland, so why do the Mexicans need to make sure that there is a Stars and Strips nearby, and not the Americans with the great-great-great-great-granny from Meath?

 

Because the Irish in Boston first and foremost consider themselves Americans. That is a huge and profound difference.

 

To clarify: I do not really suppose that many in the US had their gleeful moments over France's malaise.

errm

Anyway, I just sat here and wondered idly why no one says a word when animosity is stirred up against the US by some, for the sake of their own twisted reasons and reasoning. Most of us cannot possibly have an interest in that.
Whatever.
Yah, I know, off topic.

 

Snook, that was among the most xenophobic tripe tripe I have ever read. What ever the problem might be with immigration the text you linked was nothing but thinly veiled nationalism and I would even go out on a limb to call it racism. It is stuff like this that makes it so hard to discuss these kinds of issues in a reasonable manner and without being called "racist" anytime you might say that we might look over immigration policy, texts like this that are flirting in a very uncomfortable manner with forces we do not want to unleash on the world.

 

Before 11 September, I knew a lot of Americans that said they were Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc before saying 'American'. So yes these days people are more likely to say American first and foremost.

Anyway, the US was built on immigration, so its rather hypocritical to show hostility to the (not so) 'new wave'. People have too much fear of competition.

 

One could think that, if there's always people entering the US, that there will be always a group of inmigrants who's not yet integrated. Also (I'm studying this at college; it's really interesting) the very word "integration" or "assimilation" has a racist or discriminative "scent". What does it mean? That they have to abandon all their customs? That they should act as an american (what kind of american?) while in front of you? Remember the Borg race (from Star Trek) "surrender or be assimilated". In the end, they end up being totally absorbed. It's called "ethnic genocide" or something like that. The murder of a culture, like what happened to native american people.
Next thing is, the melting pot. My opinion is that they won't be assimilated. They will mix with the american people, and a new uhm thing will come from it. It has come already, in fact. Spanglish has been around for more than 200 years. And this kind of mixture is common in many borders, or so I think.
One last thing, that poor Mexican people should ask you first to define what your american culture is, and then you could ask them to adapt to it. Surely it would keep you busy for a while before you can talk to them again :wink:

 

I meant it figuratively. As in, as long as they aren't anti-American in their flag-bearing ways. By all means, throw any flag you want. As long as you remember that you are in America...

Hell, I shouldn't be talking, I hate America.

 

Well yes you should respect the country that you are relocating to, but I don't think anyone to abandon their culture to fit in.

Well I did see a xenephobic demonstation in the news 2 weeks ago and a guy on a loudspeaker was saying "... you don't know what diseases they be bringin' in..." It made me laugh, but I don't think its typical American attitude to foreigners (at least I hope so ).

 

As far as flag waving goes, yeah, no one really has a problem with that. If the Irish want to wave Irish flags on St. Patrick's Day, and the Hispanics want to wave Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo, go ahead, knock yourself out.

 

The free flow of capital without the free flow of labor will lead things to getting really out of whack. I'm sure the fiscal conservatives will agree.

Also, someone mentioned illegal immigrants and Medicaid above. Since 1996 illegal immigrants have not been eligible for Medicaid (welfare reform.) Indeed, illegal immigrants aren't eligible for Social Security (but they pay more than 50 billion each year, 10% of the surplus in the earning suspense file and growing), illegal immigrants aren't eligible for Medicare hospitalization, illegal immigrants aren't eligible for food stamps, illegal immigrants aren't eligible for housing assistance. 8 million illegal immigrants filed income taxes this past tax season, they paid into Social Security and Medicare for which they aren't eligible, they pay sales tax, property tax. According to the the National Research Council (non-partisan) and the Cato Institute (conservative) illegal immigrants contribute more money to the government (state and federal) than they consume.

According to a radio report on NPR, the average hourly wage for an illegal immigrant is just over 9 bucks an hour. Online searches indicate that the avearge yearly income is over 18,000. It is popular to say they work for less than minimum wage, and I'm sure many do, but if the report is right and the average is over 9 bucks an hour than either there are some illegal immigrants really raking in the money or maybe there are a lot more earning above minimum wage than people credit.

I'm sure someone will say - but that isn't the point, they're breaking the law! I'm just pointing these things out since it is popular to say things like - they don't pay taxes (some don't but 8 million did pay income tax not to mention sales, property, etc), or they are on Medicaid, or they are on food stamps, or...

 

Yeah, but that's crap. That means that families, even ones in which both parents are working, their annual income is considerably less than what I make on my own. My wife has really been pushing to have a baby lately, and my main problem is I don't see how we can afford one with just my salary. To think that people making significantly less than me have kids, I just don't know how they do it.

Which gets back to another reason why I think it is in most illegals best interest to integrate into American society - at least as far as learning the English language is concerned. Unless they want to always take the lowest paying jobs, they are going to have to go to college. As far as I know, most colleges and universities teach in English exclusively. So it's not like asking immigrants to integrate and become "American" is just for existing American's personal convenience, it's in their own best interest to do so as well.

 

The 18k figure I saw was for a single earner. If the average is a bit above 9 bucks an hour, you do the math and see what the yearl income is. The listed number for 2 earners was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 to 26 k. One thing I've noted though is that there are a lot of numbers out there now, particularly from anti-immigrant groups, that seem suspect. *shrug.

Most economic studies I've seen indicate that in the short term the effect of illegal immigrants on low income workers is a decrease in wages of around 3%. One economist has said it can be up to 8%. But the economists do agree that this is short term and that in the long term these numbers decrease as the opportunities illegal immigrants present create more business opportunities for others (they buy cars, eat out, buy stuff, etc.)

Additionally, some economists argue they save low wage earning jobs. If you decreased the labor supply for certain undesirable jobs and therfore increased the wage demand the result wouldn't be that some jobs just paid more but it would be that certain employers would pay to have things automated thereby eliminating the low wage earning jobs folks are purportedly concerned about.

All in all, I think most non-paid economists don't think the effect of illegal immigration is that large when looked at as a whole. For example, George Borjas of Harvard estimated that the average American's wealth is increased 1% by illegal immigration.

Here is the deal to me: if you want the free movement of capital you need to recognize the need for labor to move as well.

And, as mentioned above, it won't be the illegal immigrants going to college but if we don't make them felons their childrent might.

 

Right - and that's what I was basing my statement on as well. Even if you had 2 people each earning 18k, I don't see how you can raise a family on such a salary. Btw, $9 an hour works out to just about exactly $18k per year, before taxes. If you assume they work an average 40 hour work week, the salary comes out to $18,720. Of course, that assumes that they don't miss any time for sickness, or need time off for any other reason, and still get paid for things like holidays and the like. In all likelihood, none of those are true, so in actuality it is probably closer to $18,000.

I agree with this too. As I said, you rarely get full integration with immigrating adults. It's the next generation - people who were born and raised in America - that are the ones that fully integrate. Such was the case with my family. My grandparents were immigrants, and while they did learn English, they were still very immigrant-like (for lack of a better term) for their entire lives. However, my parents are not immigrant-like at all (they only speak English for example) and I as a 2nd generation American, am as American as anyone.