New Orleans

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Felinoid --

Oh, I got the jist of your post quite right. You feel bad, but think that this culling is a necessary thing. The only thing is, I don't find there's much "feeling" in this comment.

You can SAY you wouldn't make the trade, but that comment pretty much says it all. I'm sorry, but it's really quite blunt.

And furthermore -- it's easy to see OTHER people as dispensable, for you I would imagine. But do you put such little value on your own life as well? I feel that those people who see this horrible tragedy as having a silver lining and to be a "necessary" culling of unwitting participants, ought to be the first ones to lead the way. I mean, afterall, who gets chosen? Do you see any grand plan for this? Are their lives any less valuable than your own?

 

Though it's obvious I'm to be the scapegoat for this, I can't help but try to cure any misconceptions about my meaning and/or motives.

I wouldn't make the trade because I don't think I (or anyone else, for that matter) is qualified to say who lives and who dies. You may wish to play God and bring everyone back, but I trust that this would not have happened were it not meant to happen.

This "culling" you're talking about is simply death, and it happens every day. It is a "necessary" part of life, and whether it happens by hurricane, lightning, or old age makes little difference IMO. In the end, the spark is gone, and nothing can ever replace it. It's tragic but inevitable. The people who really need our pity are the survivors. They are the ones who must carry on with a hole in their hearts.

You may scoff all you want, but I speak (type) the truth when I tell you that I would be more than willing to swap my life for another's if it would benefit mankind. And had I the chance to give up my life for more than one other person's, I would do it without hesitation.

 

No scapegoatism here -- you put yourself out there with the comments you made. Surely you did not expect people to think this type of opinion to be particularly feeling and compassionate at this particular time??

As far as

The reason this happened is quite simple -- the city had levees that were OLD and not updated -- levees that could only handle a Category 3 hurricane at BEST. There was no grand design here, just frigging incompetence. This entire tragedy could have been prevented.

 

Wow, I'm glad this thread is in the AoDA because it's starting to get a bit heated! Not only are the residents of New Orleans fighting in the flooded streets but even we're fighting on the Boards!

No wonder people find it so hard to co-operate during times of adversity, if we can't even manage it here.

 

Well said HB. I think we can put our efforts to better use in wishing for something better for those poor people down on the Gulf Coast, in the days ahead.

 

All that I have to say is that some people disgust me. There are people out there that yes, I would consider heroes in a heartbeat, putting their own lives at risk trying to help the people in need right now. Then there are the people who are so afraid of what's going on that they are shooting at these people who mean them no harm, robbing stores, and as much as it disgusts me to say this, even looting seniors homes.

When will people finally learn that in times of need we must work together as a whole, in order to protect our human race for generations. Not that I agree with all of what has been said here, but many of you guys have very valid points, although you're taking it a little bit far.

Thats my two cents.

 

Apparently it's even worse than what you've just described, reep. I just heard on the TV that there are reports of groups of men going around New Orleans gang-raping women. Sometimes, things like this bring out the worst in some people - never in a million years would I have expected people to stoop this low. I guess they just figure it's party time.

 

Well, I heard that there were prisoners set free from a prison near/in New Orleans, perhaps they are to blame. But I doubt the city would allow prisoners to roam freely.

 

I'm astounded even more so by the incompetence of these people. The basic function of government is to secure the safety of its citizens. If it can't even do that, then it has no reason to exist. One of the New Orleans' officials has commented that the government's performance has been a "national disgrace." I could not agree more.

[ September 02, 2005, 05:38: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

This disaster is in NO WAY economically beneficial. It is called the "Broken Window" theorem...

Why don't we all go around breaking windows? After all, then everyone could be employed as window makers...

The problem with that theory is that economic activity is about growth and increasing the overall standard of living. Yes, people will be employed repairing the damage, but then we will only be exactly where we started with significantly less resources.

This disaster is going to wreak economic havoc...as a nation, our standard of living is going to dip because of it. While it may not be hugely significant to every individual, it will be there...

 

@ LNT,

In my line of work there's a "Broken Windows" theorem (by Kelling and Wilson) which forms the basis of explanation for criminality, disorder and incivility. The more run-down, damaged or otherwise dilapidated an area, the more petty crime will exist and increase the likelihood of more serious crime. Essentially, it's the guiding principle behind "zero-tolerance" approaches to crime and disorder (although somewhat subverted for political ends).

I don't think that Kelling and Wilson could have foreseen something like this, though. The rapes, looting, shootings and general hysteria are things I have never seen before and hope never to experience in person.

--------------

I'm just staggered at the response by some people on the ground in the area. Amazing how twenty-four hours and circumstances can turn a person into an animal, a brute, or a killer - the people who are trying to bring in relief are being shot at, for ****'s sake! A National Guardsman at the Superdome was shot - for what? It's hard enough bringing in relief to a disaster area, but when it's an active urban combat zone, what chance do people have?

Now is not the time to be pointing the finger at the administration except to spur them into action; that can be done later, once the immediate problems have been dealt with. All that matters at the moment is quelling the destruction and saving/evacuating as many people as possible from the area.

@ Felinoid - while I can appreciate the argument, now was probably not the best time for "silver linings" of that nature.

 

Hmmm I guess humanity has only advanced in terms of its technology. We still act like chimpanzees when stripped of law and order. Sad. But quite interesting...

 

They're beginning to think New Orleans is going to be impossible to rebuild. The warehouse district is flooded. In addition to the leaks of all of the gas stations of the city into the cesspool of river water, paint, benzine, oil, and various other toxic chemicals have been leaked out of their containers in the warehouses. Add to this the decomposing corpses and other unpleasant things. Think about that water. The only way to get that water out of the city is to utilize the pumping systems of the city. These pump into the Gulf of Mexico. I don't think that the EPA would allow the city to destroy the seafood industry of the country and an entire ecosystem to boot.

Most of my friends have been confirmed safe, if y'all were concerned. Only a few stragglers. Looks like my family may be financially ruined, though. My grandfather and my uncle co-own a steel business, and their supplyer's shop was in New Orleans.

Edit: I spoke with a friend of mine who is on leave from the military. One of his buddies is in the National Guard, and he's going to New Orleans tomorrow. Their orders are, apparently, to fire upon anyone classified as a "potential threat." I guess that means anyone on the street who has a gun...

 

@NonSequitur

Entirely different "Broken Window"...

My theory applies to macroeconomics.

 

The people were left - by their government - to fend for themselves. The best the govenment could do was to tell people to run for their lives. So those with the means did so; they got in their fat SUV's and headed out.

Yet, take the poorest, least educated people, and just leave them in the midst of one of the worst storms in recent history, and watch the results - they are not surprising. Those people have nothing but their lives - they had no way, no means to get out of harm's way. Then they were left for days to continue to fend for themselves. None of this should be that surprising here.

 

Chandos: Recall that Social Security and Welfare come in on the 31st. The evacuation was on either the 29th or the 30th.

Look at this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.recovery/index.html

It's a war zone...

 

Indeed it will cause grave problems to the economy. However, those people who are in construction (specifically when disasters occur) do benefit by having jobs, therefore helping those without jobs, not the economy in general.

As to my personal opinion on Felinoid's previous posts. If what he meant was to look at the "positives" in this disaster (and others), then I agree. Although he said it the wrong way, at the wrong time, and wrong topic.

We cannot do anything to prevent natural disasters from occurring. The damage and deaths they cause, however, can be prevented. Most of what has happened has been at fault of those who have not care to take the responsibility they have upon themselves to make the city stronger against such natural catastrophes. Such as making the Levees stronger, or maybe having a system of sorts that allows material needs to reach those in need, as well as transport for those needing to leave the city. Then again, even with the technology and wonders we have now a-days, nature is still wild and unpredictable. But as stated before, now is not the time to point the blame finger, but to give a helping hand.

And yes it is very sad how humans would rather please their sick and inhumane pleasures, then help those in need. And in turn, helping themselves and the force of the aftermath in general. But such is the prime nature of most weak-willed and weak-minded humans in times of crisis.

 

The whole thing is shameful.

And yet, as much as I think the looting and rapes are distasteful, I don't at all think this is the big story here. It seems to me these events are already being used cynically to deflect blame from the drastic and shameful failures of public officials up to this point. How? By dehumanizing the victims of this tragedy, and deflecting sympathy from their plight. Just show the perpetrators of theft and violence again and again, make sure you get the point across that their nearly all poor and black, and pretty soon people will start to think that these people are to blame for the piss poor performance of the feds, state and local gov't, FEMA, etc etc etc. Just let them stew in the muck and the heat for a week, without basic services and food and water, and then parade them on TV and talk radio as untermenchen who subverted the good-faith attempts of the authorities to take care of them...

Utterly shameful. I sincerely hope people inside and outside the US are getting a good look at this. 2/3rds of New Orleans is (was) poor and black, for all intents and purposes segregated, and generally hidden from view. Well here they are on the world stage. The affluent and omnipotent USA, despite trillions spent on a Dept of Homeland Security hyperfocused on making sure Brazilians don't enter the country without being thoroughly fingerprinted, has what kind of brilliant plan at the ready, for a disaster that they've known for years was high-probability?

Absolutely shameful...

 

I entirely agree with Bion, if the goverment had delt with the disaster better (both during, such as making levees stronger, and after the hurricane) then you wouldn't be seeing as much rape or crime. And as for the looting of stores, I see no wrong to it as long as it stays to stealing things one needs, since the goverment has failed to do otherwise.

Hopefully this whole disaster will prove as a lesson to humanity in general, at the least.