Offensive mages/sorcerers?

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Here's a challenge for you. Get away from the sorcerer and play a game without using Stone Skin, Project Image, Wish, Simulacrum or Animate Dead.

I do it easily enough. Now I'm not as good at the twinked stuff like Tactics where you have to cheat in some battles just to keep up with the cheating enemies. But I can get through the regular game just fine.

There are spells to protect from death. There are Raise Dead and Ressurection to deal with those pesky Death spells or if you really want to make a battle hard on yourself. Try to beat them without losing anybody. Which makes your saving all the more important.

Sadly my favorite kind of mage needs ToB installed but that's my loss really.

But I'm also capable of cheese if I wish. Like I know how to take down a dragon using only spells. Not only can I take it down only using spells but I've chunked Fir'Kraag doing it.

 

It’s quite possible that I argue poorly, but really I have a hard time understanding how people who have played both wouldn’t realize the tactical advantages of the sorcerer.
Sure you can metagame and get an estimate of what you need, but it will only take you so far. when I rest my wizard I’ll always notice spells I haven’t cast and it battle I fairly often lack a spell I would have liked to have.

Your mages always memorize six wishes?

You have never encounterd a situation where one additional PFM weapon would keep you from being killed or where another save or die is necessary?
This is the sorcerers main advantage over the ordinary mage IMO and I fail too see how it’s irrelevant.

Casting more spells is nice but that’s just a bonus.

I did.

Thank you for allowing me to express myself. Luckily for me, I was directing the topic starter to a couple of resources that address his concerns, not trying to convert anyone.

To me the importance of the on the fly flexibility the sorcerer offers is blatantly obvious. As such I can only draw two conclusions; either we are playing different games or you haven’t tried it out. I wouldn’t consider that derision but I suppose YMMW.

 

How did this thread turn into a "Wizard Vs Sorcerer" argument?

 

@ Starwalker

You would have more "arguments" if the topic was in the ToB forum
As it stands now I can't see how the supremacy of the sorcerer can be contested.

 

I've played both a sorcerer and a mage.

When it comes to ToB I honestly prefer the specialty wizard that comes with it. It sits somewhere in the middle.

The Sorcerer's advantage is a slight bit more freedom with what you can cast and a couple more spells you can cast. Honestly if you gave both the exact same spell casting equipment to boost speed and spell slots. The freedom of what can be cast is the only real advantage because one or two more Magic Missiles or the like isn't going to help you much.

A specialist mage of about the same level has only like 1 or 2 less spells to cast at high level. Truely advantageous if you have ToB installed so you can cast time stop and such a few times. Makes those higher level spells a little more accessable a little quicker. But the mage does catch up.

The on the fly spell casting is a nice advantage. I'm not denying that. But it comes with a limited number of spells. Anything out of that and your limited by your resources, and how many of what spell scroll you carry. Much more metagaming involved to be prepared for those rare situations. You only need three a level is questionable and seems to much more be a sorcerer players mind set. If necessary I can actually use between 7 and 10 different spells on the lower levels. I haven't much bothered to diversify my high level tactics that much. Though I probably should work on that more but by that time I tend to go for tried and true methods until they fail me.

Yet when my tactics fail me. I have 15 to 20 different spells with a mage to mix things around and try again. At this point they don't often fail me but some battles are hard but I'm not out for every ounce of power I can. Sometimes i find a whole new tried and true tactic.

now unless I'm playing the cleric and going for ultimate Cleric power. I find my Cleric's can be decently offensive at low level so not all of my levels that can are filled just with healing spells so my Cleric tends to start running out of spells at roughly the same time my mage does with my combination of hands on and spell tactics. Or the occassional goof up where I nail myself with area affect spells. So I really don't worry about those extra two castings all that much. They are an advantage but if anything I say that only helps to mitigate the issue with the fact that they can only learn 5 spells out of an average of about 18 per level. Which my mages tend to have most if not all of when i play a mage.

Though I'm amazed at how many are out for all the power they can get and don't have Ice Storm as one of their level 4 spells. It packs a punch early on. Can damage for 4 rounds and not a whole lot that is resistant or immune to it. There's actually only one dragon it can't be used against and that is Adalon. Serious advantage in the court of the few cold spells once you learn how to work them. Specially with multiple castings. A decent part of my fourth level spells is always ice storm.

 

You were talking about resting the party with a wish. That brings back all spells, so you only need one wish, which you can cast over and over.

Around and around we go again. You say it, but without explaining it; without giving the second step about how a sorceror has a choice with one one spell slot of a particular level left. The mage is stuck with the remaining spell he memorized, but the sorceror can pick anything from his spellbook. You need to say these things in an argument where your point isn't coming across, not just assume they're automatically understood.

You're welcome.

Little targetting problem, eh? It was starwalker you were assuming hadn't tried it out, after he didn't hear what you didn't say. The importance of the "on the fly flexibility" is obvious to me as well, but it may not be to everybody, and you have to consider that when making your arguments and explain everything fully when people don't get your point right away.

 

yes but in ToB I can talk about my preferred pick and I have won several people over on that front.

I honestly have played both though and one does not really weigh in over the other. They both cover each other's serious drawbacks and work out to be roughly the same thing with slightly different style. When you play mages alot though and as long as this game is around and as many times as we've played it. It's hard to play without some foreknowledge though. The only thing I actually plan for are spells that basically deal with certain quest experience. Like casting the occasional remove curse or such.

I limit my play to casting my buff's in battle like it was an unexpected confrontation with only a couple of exceptions. It's required me to adapt my play style to actually work without buffs that I actually have a harder time remembering to put them in for the couple of battles I actually need them.

I don't use Protection from Magic Weapons at all at this point so I have no way of experiencing the need to have just one more protection from magic weapons to survive the fight. If I cheesed a lot more then I could probably take on the infamous tactic's battles but that would require me completely retraining myself to play magic users.

Now don't get me wrong. I do use buff's. but my when and where and how is a bit different than some people since I do cast them wholely in battle and do not prepare my party for battle spell wise normally. Even when I do because one battle is frustrating me horribly. the one I tend to use is resist fear and occassionally others that can affect the group.

Yes I have a twisted and unique style and some are probably going to say I'm not using my character to my full potential. But I do. I use quite a number of the spells in the book at times.

 

@Fel: Well.....you would still need more than one wish. You don't get the "rest the party" option every time you cast the spell.

 

Felinoid,

Really? You have an extreme high wisdom and intelligence then? Even with 18 in both I have to cast it repeatedly to get the rest option.

If you say so. I was addressing someone who had allegedly played a sorcerer. I honestly thought it was enough, but if anyone finds my arguments lacking they where welcome ask me to clarify. How this is insulting and deriding is beyond me.

Starwalker,

When I went through the first time i dismissed this a junk. I thought magic weapon was (WEAPON) in reality anything that is dangeorus is magical, mindflayer, vampire etc. When they can't hit they can't drain, but they still will take enormous amount of damage from the fireshield. the SS and MI will take the load of damage between the casting of PFMW.
This is quite a fun way to make the mage the centerpiece of the melee. For extras add sunfires and lesser Globes which allow the rest of the party to hit the surrounded sorcerer with fireballs.

It's hard not to metagame, that is one of the reasons I like sorcerers. They have the spells they have.
That is also why I like mods like Tactics. You don't have to hold back and pretend. Cheese(depending on your definition) isn't necessary to take you through it either.

 

SS, MI, and then PfMW is three turns the way I do things. Three turns that I could have the battle pretty well towards over with.

As long as I'm not being jumped on by like 5 mind flayers at a time or something. I actually don't have much problem with my mages and them because I admit I take advantage of their poor scripting and they go after the mage and I have usually two big fighters that come in right behind and smash the Mind Flayer to bits. With two relatively high intelligence mages I can keep doing this with only a little rest because they can alternate until the lowered intelligence stat wears off. This is one way that Mages actually tank pretty well.

The shadow Dragon is a bit more of a problem. But then he is prone to targetting a single character as well. Area affect the middle of the room with spells that last several turns such as Ice Storm and Incindiary cloud, that you cast every turn until you run out and run the targetted character around and he will kill himself. Breath powers not a problem then.

So why should I waste my level 7 slots on project image when I can put them to better use with Khelben's warding whip. Spell Sequencer(which you can put 3 ice storms in by the way), and Ruby Ray of Reversal. Other useful spells depending on how you do it of the same level are Control undead(if your playing with a good cleric so you can do both powers) Mass invisibility, Protection from Elements, and Prismatic spray(which I think is a great spell when you learn how to use it without taking yourself out).

Prismatic spray once you get used to it can dish out some serious damage or even outright kill several opponents. Red yellow and Orange are best for the higher level things if you can aim it right. If your lucky they'll get nailed by a couple fail their saves and die. Fellow mages will die from the shere ammount of damage usually anyway if they get struck by a couple. the other 4 colour's do a remarkably good job at outright disabling or killing opponents from poison, petrication, or disintigration if they will only just fail the save. lower level enemies and even characters should fear those darker colours.

And of course if your jsut on a bender for wacky results. Fill all your slots with Sphere of Chaos. It works particularly well on enemies with higher saves vs. spells so that they are affected by it more. Just hope it doesn't heal them.

[ May 10, 2006, 23:36: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

*poofs in*

Just wanted to add that Prismatic Spray is party-friendly. Someone needs to spend more time over his grimoires!

 

SS is always be up course. PFMW only goes up when they swarm you. It also let you use sunfire effectively. Sure there are other ways to do it. But this one allows you to play your sorcerer very aggressively, which was the premise of the thread.

They don’t stun them? I can’t recall I ever sent naked mages up against mindflayers as sponges, but if it works for you…

To begin with because the images can cast those spells without you loosing them, and all your 8th and 9th level spells as well. Then they can use all your one slot items for free and ignore ordinary spell limitations like casting clairvoyance inside or summon five planetars. Then there are the serious exploits with chain contigency, but let's leave it at that.

It’s nice that you like Icestorm but from a powergaming perspective it only does a fraction of the damage of Skulltrap. It’s one level lower and not subject to energy resistance either.

 

Thank you. But I wasn't necessarily meaning from the spell. Though I do cast multiple things at once and have hit myself with others. I was more meaning you aim it one way and enemies come along another and smash the crap out of you since it is a directional spell. But I try not to stand in the direct line of such spells either way.

It can happen. But mages happen to have pretty good saves against that kind of thing. You have to worry more about it bouncing to other party members. The AI of Mind flayers is smart enough that they will change targets to attack one that is stunned if you let them. The auto hits of such a tactic are far more of a problem than a moving high intelligence mage even if the mage isn't good at melee and Mind Flayers are quite magic resistant.

If necessary try luring them out. It can be done in an effective "Scouting" manner if you feel the need to justify it rp wise. The Scouting can also be done by a different char if you do it right. Just make sure that char gets back behind the mage.

Protection from Magic Energy totally negates the damage from Skull Trap. A level 6 spell. One of the Protections that really should probably be used by enemy AI more often.

Protection from Energy only gives 75% resistance so you still do damage and is also a level 8 spell. A level that is full of spells that could be better put to use. When the level 7 Protection from the Elements would give you the same ammount of protection from Ice Storm for one level lower.

Fire Shield is most often Red and not blue. In fact I don't think any enemies actually use Fire Shield Blue.

Ice storm hits for 4 rounds and concievably does about as much damage and goes through Stone Skin. Skull Trap does not. Ice Storm is also the only direct Damage Level 4 spell in the game. But you can fill the slots with Stone skin and Greater Malison if you wish.

And this here is outright cheese and major abuse of the game engine. Without going into the issues that some have with being able to cast multiple project images. It breaks the Summon coding for one thing. The abuses of multiple project images are well documented.

And none of this takes into account that Project Images have a fatal weakness to Dispel Magic which is known to be used by enemies. And that's if your mage doesn't get hit.

 

The only ones who do are so Ice-oriented that you wouldn't even think of using Ice Storm on them, like Ice Salamanders (though theirs isn't visible). It'd be akin to casting Fireballs at Fire Giants and being surprised when they're not affected.

For the record: Skull Trap = 20-120 damage, Ice Storm = 2-16 * 4. Averages 70 and 36. Skull Trap does twice as much damage. However, this is an extremely nerfed Ice Storm. In PnP, Ice Storm does 3-30 damage per round and lasts up to 20 rounds (1 per level). That's a possible 60-600 damage, ~5 times as much damage as a Skull Trap. But even nerfed, it is still the only fourth level damage spell as you said. I prefer the sword spiders of Spider Spawn, but...to each his own.

And True Sight, another common one. Personally, I don't use Project Image. I just don't like it.

I never would have thought of using my mages as bait for mind flayers. I'm of the mindset that mages must be protected at all costs. I usually just send in Korgan or Minsc or a character with Chaotic Commands to tear through them without fear of succumbing.

 

Must be something wrong with my mages then they get stunned and killed when a mindflayer sneeze at them. Anyway, I find it more in character for the mages to protect themselves when they are attacked.

Not sure why you bring this up. Are you thinking about making a mod? For presently skulltraps wipe out everything instantly, while icestorm is just a nuisance.
Of course if you want to give yourself a challenge that is fine, but it is of little help to someone who wants power up their sorcerer.

You asked why you should waste a slot on project image, I explained why, now you say it’s to much cheese. Sure it’s cheesy but project image is never a waste. As I tried to say before, the only reason not cast project image is because it's take the challenge out of the game.

Both cheesy and fatally weak now? The solution to dispel and true sight are spell immunity abjuration, divination when necessary.

 

While that may be true, they're not competing for the same spell slot. Skull Trap is third level, Ice Storm is fourth. As has been pointed out, Ice Storm is the only damage spell available at fourth level. Now, I'd hardly call Ice Storm (even the nerfed version) just a nuisance, but it is true that it's significantly less damaging than some other choices at other levels. However, the same can be said for Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb, and yet they are still a staple of most players, because they are the best damage spells for that level.

 

You are right. I forget that Skull Trap has a higher number of Damage Dice. Between the average of 60 damage and the habit of once your high level jsut about everything making it's save for max damage. I keep thinking that about 65 is the maximum for it. That was my fault. The save for half damage on the skull trap is however something to keep in mind. As with other spells that rely on saving throws for part of their affect most of the high level things have good saves.

And Ice Storm doesn't work on Adalon like it does other dragons. But then that goes right along with things like Ice Salamanders. By then though you have some of the higher level area affect, multiple turn fire spells to cast if you really want to take her on.

It is however nerfed from the PnP version as you say. But then I can somewhat understand why. Though I wish it worked a bit more like Cloud Kill or Incindiary cloud in nature honestly. Got better over time. When you first get it it's damage is such that you can severely kill or wound many things with the ice damage. It's why I first added it into my usual spells. At higher levels when I'm going all viscious with the area affect spells I usually toss Ice storm in after others for extra damage more than relying simply on the damage it can do. Several of them going at once can do quite a bit of damage.


As for the Mages with the Mind Flayers. If your having a little trouble then Put something like a Ring of Protection on the mages. Something that I think at least a number of us have them wear anyway because of their abysmal armor classes. Ring of Gaxx or like the Ioun stone if you want too. They enhance the already good saving throws. My Fighters and for some reason Viconia(partly because nothing modified her saving throws) are the ones that get stunned more often. The spreading affect of the stun is more of a problem. You can have half your party stunned if your not careful then you have a problem. Though the mind flayers are the only places where my mages "play tank" because they are kind of suited for it with good backup from true Tanks.

It can take some practice to get used to doing things that way though. What might be easier is setting most of your party up behind your mages. Send in a thief or something else as a "scout" perhaps with boots of speed or something. Then when the Mind Flayers start to attack have the "scout" run back behind your main party and off to one side so the stun doesn't spread off to other of your characters. Can take a couple times but usually you can lure only one or two mind flayers out at a time. They'll end up out of site but sometimes they come to you anyway and sometimes they don't. Your mages are in front when they come back in sight. They'll target the mage. Occassionally they'll toss another stun affect at you but more often once you get used to it they'll simply attack. The Items affecting the saving throws will also help with the ac and make your vulnerable mages harder to hit and you should be able to take out the mind flayers. unless somethingseriously goes wrong even if they manage to stun somebody else you can usually recover from it as long as it's only like one person. Though I found that minsc can be quite the liability when stunned by mind flayers since they do like to target stunned characters first.

 

Um...I just saw this thread today and I haven't read through all those pages and pages of posts following it...but I'll just add my two cents:

WTF? Never in my 4 years of non stop addicted playing of BG2 have I EVER thought mages/sorcerers were nerfed! In fact...I've often played NWN and IWD2 and wished that Mages could be as powerful as in BG2...

Mate...have you even PLAYED a wizard correctly? I don't want to flame but...damn! I am willing to bet a FAIR bit that your one of those players who can't play without Korgan, Keldorn, Anomen and Minsc ALL in your party at once, with Imoen doing all your Breaching, Hasting and not much else...

Have you ever solo'd the game? Forget a Mage or Sorc...with a Fighter/Mage? Or any other class?

PS: If you think Mages are nerfed in this game, I recommend you look up the "Insane Dual Class" thread which should be on page 2 of this forum or thereabouts...

 

@Starwalker

Tactics smarter mages&liches do use Protection from Magical Energy always to make themselves completely immune to killer spells like skull traps, or incase of liches, ABDHW. Plus they use BOTH Fshield:Red and Blue together, it is cool, the flames look purple!

I like Ice Storm spell, if you web&entangle someone cast this spell a few times and they are history. Its main use is disrupting mages though, I remember, I was battling unmodded JonBon first time on the Tree of Life. He casted a few Ice Storms, I laughed as I thought it was a pathetic spell. But then, my mages attempted to cast vital Breaches, Pierce Magics at him only to have their spells disrupted every round due to cold damage from raging ice storm, I was about to scream and cry when Immy's third and final breach was disrupted too! Agh! So you see, damage itself is not the only measure of a spell's offensive power.

Truly, a mage with right items or a sorcerer with right spell selection is by all means the most powerful charecter in the ToB game, in SoA game they are not that epic, but still they do pack quite a punch via using 9th level spell scrolls via Project Images!