Ok, so I read the "Guide to Blades"

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Yes it does. Tuigan + Arrows of Biting, anyone?

 

I like to use Bards as singers, spell support, and ranged support, in that order. That said, I prefer Skalds overall. All through SOA his song gets better and enhances the party, which rocks bigtime. I never use Bards for pickpocketing, so that's no loss. His +1 attack bonus is nice, but rarely used, as he's either singing or shooting spells.

I'm not as fond of Blades because their song doesn't improve until you hit TOB. If I have 2 bards in a party, I often have a Jester and pick different HLAs than the Improved Bard Song, as his Jester song is kind of funky and I can always find a use for another Spike Trap.

 

Tuigan, good arrows, and spin/haste..ouch.
How about spin and darts of wounding/stun, anyone tried it

 

norm bard:1 attack
tuigin:3
spin:4
improved haste:12+max damage

 

Sadly, offensive Spin can't work with in cojunction with haste.

 

How many attacks per round do you get using both Belm and Kundane?

 

4 Attacks per round, 5 with offensive spin.

Btw for the previous posts the haste effect doesn't work on bows. Along with the low damage of arrows, it's the main reason why my Bards only rarely find themselves using a ranged weapon.

Note that while Bards make decent archers, you're not maximizing their capabilities by using them as one.

 

While The Guide to Blades is interesting, almost every reason given in it for playing a Blade strikes me as an abuse of the game engine - an entirely subjective judgement, and no disrespect meant to those who enjoy taking whatever the game will give them.

 

The best classes are considered 'cheap.' Any working foolproof tactic is always sneered at. simple as.

Blade: misleadx5 with bard song.
Sorc: timestop, alacrity, every spell in their damn book!

Blades are interesting, but too equipment dependant to be any fun to me. Part of the joy of the game is trying new tactics/equipment setups with the same characters.

 

I hope that mirror images can sing......

 

Which reasons? While I'm sure I pointed out cheesy tactics and the strengths of the Blade which can destroy the limits of the game, I also included the advantages of the class - as it is in the unmodded game - which belong to the same category as Sorcerers being able to cast spells, Fighter/Mages being able to use Fighter and Mage items, Inquisitors with their Dispell Magic... which alone already puts the class on the same tier as the best of them.

They do that, don't they?

The equipment you find in the game belong in the same category as the spells and innates you can use - they are paramount to creating the right builds and in planning strategies and tactics.
Saying that the Blade is too equipment-dependent is like saying the Sorcerer is too spell-dependent. There is no sense in it whatsoever, unless you get as annoyed in planning using your equipment wisely as you are when planning what to spell to use with your Sorcerer.

 

Mirror images? Heh, I doubt it.
If they could cast spells, just imagine what a simple magic missile can do... then consider an ADHW

 

Plan-ning??? ...now you're just making up words

I see the bard as equipment dependant since he has a lousy number of attacks so in order to have an effective melee offense you need to dual with belm/kundane/scarlet. all of which are feeble in ToB with +4 weapon being essential.

Plus from a soloist perspective he caps to fast and for so little. i'm level 50 very quickly in SoA, even faster if i play from BGI (running BGT). All he gets from all those levels is a few extra spell slots and traps. Without the 'cheap' bard tricks, he's subpar fighter and underdeveloped mage.

Maybe i am too in love with the fighter-mage?
...Destory the world with TimeStop & GWW's!

 

It's a typo. Words come to me much faster than I type them and long before my fingers hit the right keys another sentence is already on queue.

"Planning" your equipment exists because there are easier ways to win battles and kill bosses rather than resorting to hack and slash with the most damaging or "coolest" weapons and items available.

How different is being equipment dependent from being spell dependent? What good is a Sorcerer without a timestop? You fail to see my arguement. Items and weapons are as important as the spells and innate abilities you use.
You may say that Sorcerers and maybe monks are the best classes because they can survive without good items. But the only time in BG2 wherein you are forced to fight without your items is in the duel for the Druid Grove, which only Druid may participate.
I rate the strength of the classes with respect to how they manage in the original game (and in several popular mods). While I also consider case scenarios, I don't dwell on the ones that don't exist or apply to the game as a whole. By "case scenario", I mean special cases like no items involved, every location in the game becoming a dead magic zone, or every location in the game having overpowered, class-dependent, magical items.

So if you think the best character is the one which can finish the game without items, then that's your opinion. Others may think that the best classes are those than can finish the game without spells, or those that can finish the game the fastest.

+4 weapons are not essential in ToB. Melissan, the Ravager and a demi-lich are all the enemies which require you to use +4 weapon (or better?) to hit them in ToB, iirc. In fact, in several instances you have to resort to +0 items to kill something.
Blades have low attacks per round, which is why they have Offensive Spin and Improved Haste at higher levels.

Level 40 is the maximum level with ToB installed.
I fail to see how this should be a disadvantage unless you're soloing the original game, in which case the game becomes redundant.

Traps which can win a boss fight in three seconds straight, or make several tactics battles much more manageable.

This subpar fighter can use every item in the game, and this underdeveloped mage can cast spells and all the best arcane buffs at peak-level efficiency - which is something only rogue classes can enjoy. In cojunction with each other, as well as with the thief HLA's, what you get is a unique character who can handle every situation and who can tank better than the best of them. Those "cheap" bard tactics are only cheap if you abuse them to the point that they become cheap. It's something that differs from person to person. Summoning 1 mislead image and 1 simulacrum, however, is not considered cheap and a bonus of +8 to damage, THAC0, and AC to the entire party, including summons, is nothing to sneeze at.

Then if you're playing the Blade kit as one no wonder you're not seeing the kit at it's best.

[ July 03, 2005, 09:05: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

Admittedly i never played as a Blade in the 'vanilla' version of the game, where im sure he would be quite powerful.

But with my current mod setup. my blade is maxed (lvl 50) by 9milXP and seem (to me at least) to be entirely dependant on buffs. Against mages/anyone that can dispell, he has his legs cut out from under him in the first two rounds. Likewise traps seem to have little effectiveness unless i can survey the area before the boss arives or is kind enough to leave and let me place them.
Most/all bosses have been improved and withstand most arcane spells and pummel the blade in melee.

In midgame which you illustrate as lvl20 the blade does indeed out-power the other classes but in the highest levels it can't stand against fighter duals/multis. the mods i have compensate for this slightly by allowing lvl7&8 spells but even with this he's still a gimp.

How i play, i reach 9m xp in no time, so besides gathering better equipment the blade fails to grow and adapt which is part of the fun for me. A fighter mage needs something around 28m to title cap which means im always levelling and grasping for evey kill.

 

Well if you have Rogue rebalancing mod installed, he will not last 10 seconds against any boss.
The one weakness of the Blade is that he can only be so strong for a rather short, fixed period of time - then he has to rebuff. In my games, I compensate for this by alternating between my simulacrum and my real character. As for traps, my tactic is to lead my enemies away with my simulacrum or PC while the other lays traps. It doesn't work in battles with small areas, though, like Sendai and the servants of the Unholy Eclipse. With a Blade, you must rely heavily on whatever resources you have - and the problem is these resources include a whole bag of holding of items. Fortunately, most of these items regenerate their powers over time and are enough against the encounters. I admit I like micromanaging Blades and rummaging my bag of holding for stuffs only another rogue with UAI might probably be able to use, as well as buffing, singing, summoning, running away and coming back rebuffed, etc. Probably not the same as the more direct way of combat F/M's employ, where it's all slashes and fireworks but it works just as well and it's fun for me. The only time I was forced to use Enhanced Bard Song xn (where n is greater than 2) was when I had to solo the servants of the most Unholy Eclipse on insane and I stupidly lost all my maze scrolls, and the time invincible Cernd mysteriously kept dying against improved Faldorn.
Note that I made it clear in my guide that Enhanced Bard Song xn is something you can either abuse, or use to your advantage without using more than 1 LvL 6 spell slot.

I understand how important Greater Whirlwind is for the F/M's. The Blade compensates for this via other means, since there are several ways for him to increase his damage output to parallel that of an F/M/T going GWW+Assassination. Like I said, his way of doing so may not be conventional, but it works. But I rarely go for damage in my games - increased number of attacks combined with the Scarlet, or a stat-draining weapon or FoA/Short Sword of Mask/Soul Reaver is how I handle bosses.

BTW,where dispell magic is involved, SIrotection from Divination works wonders (also the LvL 5 or 6 spell Globe of Invulnerability, iirc). Where dispell arrows are involved, use the shield of reflection.

[ July 03, 2005, 13:07: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

I can appreciate the different playing style you'd need to use with a Blade and because of this topic i'll probably have another crack at playing as a Blade.

But again i keep coming to the view that he's a weak f/m if you don't exploit bard song.

I use the same assortment of spell effect items to buff/summon/disable, if only to save on the number of spell slots used. FoA/Answerer/Blackrazor/Sword of the Mask/Soul Reaver/Shield of Reflection are my bread and butter weapons, since they're the only sure-fire way to survive the tougher enemies.

The difference i would say is that the Blade needs those items to be effective where as with a Fighter/Mage it makes life easier.

 

Nah, you needn't burden yourself making one. The class simply either fits or doesn't, based on experience.

Don't forget Tenser's. A Blade can cast it at LvL 40 efficiency (only because your HP is double and your HP is higher at LvL 40). The Blade is indeed a weak F/M if both characters buff (complete with innates and HLA's) to their best and you leave it that way. (I'm saying this from the F/M's perpective. In the game, a weak F/M is still a dangerous F/M) But combined with tactics, one Mislead singing EBS and a simulacrum (cast at LvL 40 efficiency - simmies work at 2/3 the caster's lvl, iirc) it's able to settle scores as good as an F/M.

Not all items. Some are class dependent, others alignment dependent, some character/race dependent. The Bard's wide range and versatility also allows him to make better use of several items, ie, Fire Elementals from the Staff of Fire and Enhanced Bard song, etc.
Btw, it was only when I got into using a rogue type character(with UAI) and decide to make it a part of my life to get every item available in the game in my bag of holding that Ilearned to appreciate the value of items, especially the more obscure and the overly restricted ones. Maybe it's the pressing factor that these items are paramount to my character's survival that drives me to it. This is especially true in several mods, where I find myself looking at godly class/character-specific items.

[ July 03, 2005, 15:16: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

@Pseudospawn: " TimeStop & GWW's" is what I would call a "cheap trick" and I fail to see how "cheap" the Blade's tactics are in comparison.

As Scythesong pointed out, the Blade can't just rely on one way to defeat his adversaries. Time Stop and Greater Whirlwind though it is effective is not in itself very creative or rewarding.

Some of us love Blades and Rogue types because when you play them you have to come up with new tactics to defeat your foes. Most of the time it means rummaging through your inventory to pick up the right scroll and the right potion and take advantage of your environement. It is not just casting Time Stop and Improved Alacrity and keep pummelling the baddies with Greater Whirlwind.

The FM needs these items as much as the Blade... If you want a character that is not "item dependant" play a Monk or a Sorcerer (provided you pick the right spells for your Sorcerer, you don't have to bother about planning or micromanaging your spells).

This argument about items doesn't make much sense; sorry if I'm blunt but I can't see how this translate into a weakness since any self-respecting character will have collected enough items to store the Adventurer's Mart ...at least twice.

What is great about BG is that contrary to many games you don't have to just point and click (again and again... ad nauseam) that is why I don't like monks: if you play a high level Monk he can walk through the game naked and all you have to do is point and click, even your little sister can do that!

 

It's a bit simpler than that Caradhas. We just have different perspectives and frames of reference.
Although I myself don't agree with some of Pesudospawn opinions, we are all entitled to our own. Admittedly, I learned from some of his insights here and there.
There isn't much cause for an arguement.