Ok, so I read the "Guide to Blades"

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I never said that I didn't respect Pseudospawn's opinions, I just disagree with him on most points.

Now Scythesong I think that you are quite right: "we have different perspectives and frames of reference" what it all comes down to is a simple question of gameplay and a matter of personal taste. Still it's always interesting to read about different strategies and tactics.

 

I admit 'item dependant' is a little misleading, as we all need some items on our PC. The difference as i see it is between needing the best/most useful & making do with what you get (not sure if that makes much sense.)

My f/m doesn't need all the buffing/summoning items in the game because they can do that themselves, similarly they don't need the stat-draining items thx to the shear onslaught that time-stop/GWW brings.
Sure we all pick them up and as you said fill the advent's mart several times over but for me its a bonus, not a must have for playing the game or for a sense of achievement in getting every item.

 

Ok I understand what you mean then, not as much "item dependant" as "item crazy" (got to have -and use- all the shiny items... muwaaaahrhaaha).

I guess the only reason a Blade would use Carsomyr is because he can use it not because he would be any good wielding it.

Perhaps you would get a kick out of Use Any Item then? With HD or Jan in your party you could take advantage of the weird useless (to a FM ) junk you usually throw away?

 

@Scythesong:

Firstoff, I wasn't very precise. While I said "almost every reason... for playing a Blade" I should have said something like: almost every reason that makes Scythesong chortle with joy while playing a Blade The guide does a great job at describing Blades and their potential, but there are a few things in it that are... questionable.

Here's where I'm coming from: the game allows many things that I wouldn't, if I were dungeon mastering. To quote from the guide for a moment:

go immediately to the Docks District. Enter Mae Var's Guildhall, and drink up on the Thievery potions. Save your game, then it's stealing time! Sell your wands, steal them back, then sell them again and steal them back, again and again and as much as you want from the fat merchant behind the desk until your Gold hits critical.
If you want to be careful you can buy another Potion of Master Thievery from him so your chances of getting caught turn zero. This may seem like an cheesy way of raising gc(gold pieces), but it's perfectly legal and logical.

Now in my opinion, a) potions of Master Thievery shouldn't stack, b) the whole sell-and-steal-repeatedly tactic shouldn't work since any storekeeper that stupid should have been out of business long ago, and c) while clever, interesting, and allowed by the game, the tactic is anything but "perfectly legal and logical". And I even think that in your heart of hearts you agree with me, or you wouldn't have felt the need to include that last sentence at all.

I'll make the rest a lot briefer:

For myself, I can't think of any reason that multiple Bard Songs should stack.

Were I dungeon mastering, a Simulacrum casting a spell from a scroll would cause the actual scroll to be consumed.

Defensive Spin + Ring of Free action is a bit of a gray area - I'm not sure on this one, but it might be that a Blade wouldn't be able to activate defensive spin while wearing one if I had to make that decision.

 

Basically- Plenty of players, myself included (probably calling ourselves RP'ers) disagree with you, scythe. To get the best out of a blade, as you see it, you have to abuse the game in ways which are 'cheesy' or munchkin tricks.

Steal/sell is silly, but legal within the game and perhaps the only use for pickpocket skill. Together with a few cheap potions, you might as well break open SK and edit your money. You might feel better by getting the money in-game, I wouldn't.

Misleads should not be able to sing. The spell description says they cannot perform any actions, and they are an *image*, not an all-singing all-dancing backing group. I've never played PnP, but I'd guess that nobody would let you do that in a game. Again- you might enjoy it, I wouldn't.

Traps make the game simple and boring. This is more subjective than the rest, but that's my viewpoint. You say it yourself- "Traps which can win a boss fight in three seconds straight". Fun? Not for me.

Also, the point about belm/kundane- I think the intention there was to say that the blade is tied down to using those two weapons. Sure, you can use FoA, Crom or whatever, but you wind up with a lousy attacks per round.

I'm sure there are many powergamers who would disagree.

 

Having played a Blade through SoA and a lot of ToB, I can see both sides of the arguement. Give them the singing misleads and yes, it is ridiculous. I did that a few times and I felt guilty for it. Angryguy, I agree: they are images that cannot talk, nor sing. I do, however, think Blades can be very powerful within the game engine. A simulacrum singing is perfectly fine. Even one Improved Bard Song is a nice bonus. Even without something singing, Bards can be quite poewerful. The spells they cast are of a higher level than any pre-mod sorcerer could hope to cast. A Blade's skull trap, for instance, is a force to be reckoned with. They are very fun and are no more item dependant than any other fighter type. Traps, so long as you only use in-game knowledge, are not cheesy at all. No more than any other tactic used to kill monsters, that is. So yes, Blades may be abused, but so can ANY class in the game. Four projected images from one sorcerer, fighters shooting arrows through walls, wild mages with unlimited spells - it's all possible. Just play the way you enjoy.

 

First off, some merchants are indeed that stupid and surely a Blade with scores of 18 in Int, Wis and Char (which I recommend in the guide) has plenty to say and do to outsmart a merchant with dismal Int and Wis scores.
Second, I said the tactic is perfectly legal and logical, not "the way I do it is perfectly legal and logical" which is why you will find the words "be creative" in several parts of the mod so you can use the tactic, depending on how you personally rate what is, and is not, cheesy/cheap.
As for how I resort to applying sell-stealing, it's for the sake of convenience.

There's also no good reason why it shouldn't. The song has magical properties, so you and I and everybody else can't know for sure. Which is why you're on your own on how you propose to use the song.

Which is why there's a part there that says that the tactic is considered cheesy/cheap by other players.

I introduced several tactics in the guide that are "questionable" so that players will know that these tactics exist. In no part of the guide did I give practical examples of when and where it should be used, however, because that's up to the reader's judgement.

It was for the sake of roleplayers that I decided to introduce the strengths of the Blade by the basics and by discussion because nowadays what is, and is not, acceptable to the whole throng of roleplayers is something that is as gray as defensive spin+the ring of free movement, BG2-wise. In any case, if any CRPG gameguide writer were to use what the most puritan roleplayer would think as "right" as the basis of his guide there wouldn't be one to write. A walkthrough maybe, not a guide.

Neither do I care whether or not you enjoy it. And yes they are images, created by magic. What's said is that they "cannot perform any actions at all such as attacking or casting spells". While they're certainly not "an all-singing all-dancing backing group", neither does any of us really know for sure that they can effectively sing or use the Enhanced Bard Song. If it's a big "no" to you, fine.

Then that's your opinion. I doubt others will share the same considering the tactics mod.

Maybe it's because unrealistic for a character to be able to really make more than 4 attacks per round without suffering some penalty?
No, the Blade isn't tied down to both these weapons. He needs only one, and the Scarlet Ninja-To is the best of them all. With offensive spin (and he gets enough of these that you'll probably run out of HP before you run out of spins) he gets four attacks per round with +2 to damage and THAC0, each hit doing maximum damage. While you might think this pales in comparison to GWW+X, the Bard is a jack of all trades - and he certainly has other ways to increase his total damage output.
Damage isn't all about GWW and LvL 9 spells.

About the last sentence of your post, I leave it to the powergamers to figure out how a Blade can do massive amounts of damage without the benefit of 10 apr.

About the guide in general I admit it's quite lacking, which is why it needs to be revised. Maybe with a longer introduction so players know that they're looking at facts - tools they can choose whether to use or not, depending on their opinion. It's a game, after all.

Btw, if I may get away with a little sarcasm, at the rate roleplayers are rating BG2 classes these days pretty much sooner or later the most powerful kit will end up to be the Beastmaster.

[ July 04, 2005, 07:10: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

If I get this right, the Blade is criticised because it is either:

a) too powerful.
b) too cheesy.
c) both.

I fail to see the point since any class have advantages that can be abused (Fighter/Thief, anyone? What about Time Stop Trap, Greater Whirlwind, Assassination?)

Would you still call the steal & sell items cheesy if your character didn't need any potion of master thievery at all to do it? I would not. Besides if you played in such a way that you would NOT reload if your Rogue/Bard failed his pickpocket attempt, there would be nothing cheesy about it.

This criticism is not 100% about RPing: it is a matter of gameplay. If you don't like traps because they are overpowered, how do you feel about Greater Whirlwind... That's 10 attacks per round! (By the way the Blade gets enough Spins to get through any number of fights any day, he just has to take a nap when he runs out of spins. Scythesong said it already, Offensive Spins do the maximum of damage... it is quite powerful for such a "lousy" warrior, compared to any Fighter except of course a Kensai).

I consider myself to be a RPer rather than a powergamer, yet I still try to devise characters that can get over their limitations: I played a Wild Mage with such a low INT that he had to drink potions of Genius before he could learn any spell. Currently I'm playing a Swashbuckler/Cleric -not the most powerful combination since he won't be able to lay any trap.

In my last run in SoA, my thief was doing the quests for Maevar and he refused to murder the cowled wizard for Edwin, it was a RPing decision, it meant no thief stronghold and no quest XP but it felt good because my character was no mindless killer.

In ToB things can get out of hand and Scythesong has a point about the Tactics MOD: you can't beat the game if you don't (ab)use your character's abilities.

What matters really is what YOU want out of this game. I don't like all the elements of the Tactics MOD but I understand that many people do.

If you want to RP then perhaps BG1 is the better game: low levels, no godlike abilities, no HLAs, weapons that break...

I think perhaps you should try and write about your gaming experience instead of lashing out at Scythesong. It's fine if you don't agree with his guide, but this is not the law, and he never said that it is the only way everyone should play this game. It is a great help and gives one insights about a class that is much often derided. Most people still consider Haer'dalis to be a weak NPC when no PC Blade can surpass him.

 

Joniah Spellsinger, the most lovable and famous rascal in all the worlds, walks into Jojo Simpleton's shop. Handsome, brilliant, and impossibly charming, he is the very picture of the ideal Rogue. So much so, in fact, that Jojo takes one look at him, and immediately forgets to spout his usual opening line: "You look like the sort that has more than two coins to rub together". Not put off in the slightest by the merchant's silence, Joniah says "My good man, today is your lucky day. I have here a Wand of Magic Missles, which I have just today obtained from the secret laboratory and dungeon of Jon Irenicus, evil archmage extaordinaire. How much will you give me for it?". "For you sir," says Jojo, "I'll give my best price. 100 gold pieces." "Done" says our hero. There follows an exchange which leaves the merchant slightly confused, but unsuspecting. "My good man, I have here a Wand of Magic Missles, which I have just today obtained from the secret laboratory and dungeon of Jon Irenicus, evil archmage extaordinaire. How much will you give me for it?" says the Spellsinger. "Why, I'll give you my best price, 100 gold pieces." replies the shopkeeper. Another slightly confusing exchange follows, and another, and another, until the befuddled mechant is forced to say "Excuse me sir, but I seem to be out of coin in my cash drawer. Allow me to get more from my safe in the back room, and we can continue our business today." Joniah is of course so smooth and polished an operator that he does not say "Safe, did you say?", although he certainly thinks it. The two continue their amiable transactions far into the evening, well past the merchant's usual closing time, until Joniah is forced to expend one of his Strength spells, merely to carry the coin in his purse, his pack, his pockets, and possibly even his socks. "Good evenening to you sir. Its been a pleasure doing buisiness with a true professional" is the Rogue's parting remark.

Are you trying to tell me there is not something wrong with this picture?

Sorry, but I felt this thread needed a little levity

 

I find it hard to believe that a fellow rouge (anyone that would accept stolen merchandise) would allow themself to be vunerable enough to have their items repeatedly stolen by anyone, let alone accept the same items over and over again without question.

.....unless of course Bob Simpleton the master trader fell ill and left his idiot half brother Jojo to run the store that day.

 

Just some thoughts reading this interesting debate:

a) It has been said that the ''steal and sell'' tactic is cheesy, an abuse of the game-engine etc.
Quoted by Scythesong: ''maybe cheesy,but legal and logical''.
How I translate that ''legal and logical''?
Some of the Bard's class main advantages are:
- the pleasant and charming personality
- high lore
- pick-pocket ability

Now a Bard with 18 INT and CHA and high DEX is the most appropriate character for the ''steal and sell'' tactic.
And from a RPing point of view it is still ''legal and logical''.
Of course if you abuse the ''steal and sell'' tactic then it DOES become cheesy.
Where is the ''limit''? For me it lies in someone's definition for ''cheese'' : ''...It is cheesy when you start feeling bad about it ...''

But I can't see Scythesong's fault for mentioning the ''steal and sell'' tactic, or using traps, or the use of misleads or
which weapons a Bard should use.
It WOULD be his fault if he didn't mention all these things and then his guide would be an incomplete one.
Because all these tactics are in the bard's potential.
If you don't like-want to use them because they don't fit in you RPing view of the game it's fine.Just remember to reconsider
some of the tactics the other powerful classes use which certainly aren't less ''cheesy'' than the bard's.

b) Bard's equipment dependance.
I really can't see any logic in blaming the bard beeing too much item-dependant.
When you have a character you try to have the best-more powerful items for him.
A mage needs the Staff of the Magi , as a Paladin needs the Carsomyr, as a Monk needs the Gauntlets of crushing to be more powerful.
That doesn't meen they will ''die'' if they don't have these items.
And a bard can do fine even without using Belm.

c) Traps.
For me the most important thing is how you use them.
Personally I don't like using them much but it doesn't meen that I reject them.Then it would be the same as rejecting
the kit of the Bounty Hunter.Which would be totaly wrong.
If you don't use pre-knowledge in your game (sthg that is not easy to do) then you are using traps in the right way.

 

No she doesn't

No he doesn't

No he doesn't.... like you said these characters don't need these pieces of equipment to be powerful, they make the game easier but not by alot. Monk can run around naked, the Paladin can use any weapon effectivly, likewise a Mage only needs their spell book and enough time/distance from the opponent.

A bard can use an item but considering what factors they have against them there is only a few realistic choices. In a team sure they can wear/fight with whatever they like and are a valuable backup fighter/spellcaster. But to solo they gotta be dual wielding with belm/scarlet and grubbing for every spell effect item around.

I agree that 'cheesy' tactics are about guilt and authenticity. Blade's make me crawl up in the foetal position and cry in shame of using their cheesy tactics.
Traps generally rely on prior knowledge of the opponent & their tactics during battle. From a RP perspective rarely do you know your about to walk into a fight or have the foresight to trap the area.
I consider the re-stealling over and over again to be a cheat, simple as. If i really want money that badly i'll just CLUAConsole it in.
Multiple misleads/bard song are an exploit, which should have been fixed a long time ago. But they are rightly used by experienced Bards (like Scythesong) in only the most difficult battles or cheaply by n00bs throughout the game.

[ July 04, 2005, 18:47: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

 

@Truper: Nice post though you oversimplify the issue: no matter how good Joniah Spellsinger is he will fail a pickpocket attempt and then it will cause mayhem. It only becomes cheesy if you reload over and over again.

@Pseudospawn: man, the Blade doesn't need Belm/Scarlet/Kundane as you put it even for a solo, what are improved haste and offensive spins for? (btw I know they don't stack) according to your logic the game can only be soloed by a character who has a high number of attacks per rounds (if you don't have the True Grand Mastery MOD you won't notice such a difference even for Fighters dual wielding weapons) do you mean to say the game can't be soloed with say an Assassin, a Cleric or a Beastmaster? (not sure about the last one though)

Why don't you RPers out there come up with a " RPer guide to BG2 " that would be nice and instructive. It could indeed be a good read.

 

@ Pseudospawn

Please read again my post ...

A mage-paladin-monk needs SotM-Carsomyr-GoC
''to be more powerful''.

Of course unless you believe that these weapons don't make them more powerful.
I don't disagree that a monk can run around naked and be effective but he will be more effective using the Gauntlets of crushing.
The same bard can be effective using for ex. the Blade of Roses but he will be more effective with an item which grants more attacks/round.

As for the traps IMHO they are overpowered.But so is the sorcerer.Can we do something about it?
I don't think so.

Yes but still from a RP perpective, starting from your first exit from Candlekeep untill you enter Throne of Bhaal,
every part of the map you visit is full of ''bad people'' who only want to kill you.

OK someone is a bit ingenuous and can't understand it during the whole BG1.
But if the same one,who has just escaped Irenicus' dungeon tells me that :

''Listen I had enough of this.From now on I will use traps wherever I go.Now I know how things work in this adventure of mine'',
and the first thing he does when visiting a new area is trapping the whole place.

Now what do you think?
Is he justified from a RPing point of view? Personally I believe he is.
(Note: I never have-will use the above tactic even if I go solo with a Bounty Hunter)

 

@ thetruth ...apparently you need to re-read my post aswell since i was agreeing with you there.

Ah come on, no adventurer upon entering a town, or travelling down a road or treking across a lush field: would immediatly start laying down traps in every direction or surround themsleves with every protective spell known...even a paranoid one.

As i see it: a rogue in a dungeon would be constantly surveying the scene, peering around every corner for the next horde. Searching for native traps and figuring out where would be best to put his incase he needed to beat a hasty retreat. Sure he would use them as an offensive weapon from time to time, leading the more hapless mobs into a pit of spikes or a flame barrier.

....but he would not fill an entire room in the anticipation that a tough opponent might spawn there!

 

Each and every high level character must exploit his or her abilities to be successful, especially with mods installed. Sell-stealing does make sense to me...

A stat of 18 is considered superhuman, is it not? Just think about your fighters with 18 strength... I can guarentee that there is not a human alive who can ever carry 300 pounds for many days, and through hundreds of physical fights. A charisma of 18, then, must be given equivilent status. It isn't just about looking good and speaking well, you are almost magical in your ability to manipulate people. Your 18 in wisdom will give you a startling intuition to realize the mood and temperment of the shopkeeper, to evaluate how your little scheme is going. You approach your shopkeeper informing him you have a large quantity of wands, but you aren't sure how many you want to sell to him... how much would he give you for one? 100gp eh? Alright... maybe I'll sell you one more... repeat indefinitely. I don't put it past the nearly enchanting property of his stats to make the blade able to hold the merchant's trust fully.

My point is, when evaluating cheesiness it is important to put into perspective the heroic status of the character. It is easier to quantify strength or constitution or even intelligence than something like wisdom or charisma. Imagine what intelligence and study it would take to literally stop time (even in this magical world), and then the subsequent physical power required to attack at such speed as a greater whirlwind, all the while carrying 300 pounds in gear on your back, then imagine repeating this over and over until all these godly and mythical enemies are dead... sortof pales in comparison with the charisma and intuition it would take to dupe a shopkeeper into buying the same item over and over.

Cheesiness should be evaluated based on how it effects your game experience. If it makes the game so easy as to illicit boredom... maybe it is cheesy. Like playing a powergame designed party on easiest difficulty level in a "traditional" way is more cheesy to me than playing a solo blade with mods installed, and sell-stealing. I for one would find the game more boring and easy (and thus cheesy) with my uber-party than with a very very very rich blade fighting solo against an improved Irenicus.

 

@Pseudospawn
Not by a lot? do you think +4/+5/+6 is just a joke?
how many mods have you installed?

 

Hmmm, I'm just left deciding which equipment to go for to maximize a blades skill:

Do you go with Belm and Kundane (4 attacks)?

What about Celestial Fury or Flail of Ages, with Belm in the offhand?

So many decisions!

 

Wow, after reading this, I'm totally psyched to give a blade a try. I'm even going to give a bard a try in BG1 first, and import him!

This isn't the most powerful class, but it sure looks like a load of fun. I'm definitely going with the Scarlet Ninja-to and Belm combo.

Here's a slightly offtopic question: do you lose the bard stronghold (like you do the thief or ranger ones) if you spend too much time away from it (like going to the underdark, for instance)? Or do the quests "wait" for you?

 

They wait for you.