O'Reilly: Out of the Torture Closet...

Remove all ads!

Leaving aside the moral issues of torture it pragmatically accomplishs only so much as past a point people will say anything to stop you inflicting more pain.

A couple of points Khazadman, you mentioning reading up on what the 'commies did to our (or to be more precise your) people' and advocate doing the same in return. That is in any case irrelavant to the current Iraq or Guatanomo bay situation as by no stretch of the imagination could Islamic Fundamentalists be called Communists in any but the most rare of cases. Or is lumping them altogether as some sort of collective bogeymen a la Joaquin's quite perceptive comment of 'pinko commie Islamofascists' more comforting?

I come from a country where torture has been used repeatedly by both the state and the country occupying parts of it at points. It has so far proved of minimal usefulness as a tool for gathering intelligence and it certainly has not led to anything productive. The concept of, "treating them the same way as they treat our people." is in essence nothing but a demand for revenge, expressed thus it would be human and understandable as that desire is natural to all peoples. However, suggesting your own state should behave in a manner that frankly offends it's own constitution as well as international agreements is worrying to say the least.

 

As MarcusO'Murchu points out "people will say anything to stop [the] pain". And that's the problem with torture, from a pragmatic point of view: the information you get from it is unreliable. You could probably, given sufficient time and adequate facilities, get damn near anyone to say damn near anything you wanted them to say, if you were sufficiently un-squemish and sufficiently amoral.

This near-total power over another human being is the attraction of torture, to the torturers. The desired information is merely the excuse. the candy sprinkles on the cake. The Nazis maintained rest camps for their torturers, a place to recuperate from their hard work. The repudiation of morality required many cups of strong tea. Maybe a little Bach, music of clarity and joy. For us of course, just a copy of Playboy, a bottle of beer, and an insistent drum.

A democracy that deliberately creates such people probably has a serious problem, a dichotomy between what is being said and what is being done. And if the attempt to deceive is successful, what will be the effect on those who are doing the deceiving? What contempt will they feel for those whom they manipulate so successfully? And what will they do next? But then, I do tend towards pessimism.

 

Sadly, Cernak I think your pessimism is amply supported by the world around us. I can tell you from the experience of Ireland that the people who create the torturers will dehumanize their victims into nameless stereotypes, whether it be British soldiers doing the torturing or IRA Volunteers or UVF members. You can see what kind of a healthy society proliferates in N.Ireland I'm sure. Now admittely the US doesn't suffer all the other problems that make that great society what it is, but torture leaves marks on the punished and the punisher's soul.

 

The torture that happened here is not nearly as sever as what the US have inflicted on Iraqis. Yes being beaten up in police custody is no laughing matter, but did the police/army ever threaten with rape or torture to the same extent (if it all?), or did police/army have 'wish lists' of the torture they wanted to use.

As terrible as the things inflicted on civillians in N.Ireland, the police/army never raped anyone, while on duty (as far as I am aware).

We are at this moment of peace, because the British finally respected N.Ireland, and realized that we won't lie down. The same is happening in Iraq, and the brutality of the marines, will only make things worse.

Lets face facts here, rape and torture are still being used by the US, if unofficially, even if they are merely 'renting' military bases - N.Ireland during WW2 and Japan and South Korea, in modern times.

 

Cuchulain, (apologies for lack of fadas in your name btw) the torture inflicted by in N.Ireland was just as severe as what is used now the Iraqis. Been beaten up was only the thin end of a wedge that involved sensory deprivation, been dropped out of helicopters while blindfolded and told you were hundreds of feet up, having attack dogs set on you and so forth. The unofficial contacts between police/army and loyalist terrorrists made sure that you had manaics like the Shankhill Butchers wandering around for years chopping people up who were tolerated even though their identities were often widely known. In the same way the British often left terrorists guilty of appalling acts from both sides free so as to have known elements should a need to negotaite arise.

The British govt. have minimal respect for the Nationalist community and this moment of peace is as far I can see unlikely to last as any time people from one side try and sit at the table more and more preconditions are found to stop them doing so. At the same time, their opposite numbers who could equally be judged to be outside the ceasefire's rules are quite happily let run the place, as usual.

However, I agree the US has made a rod for it's own bakc in Iraq and cannot reasonably extricate itself from the mess now. It has improved nothing in it's efforts to 'liberate' Iraq to be blunt, the perception is that the new govt. is merely a puppet one and the idea that stopping the tyrant Saddam was one of the key goals requires breathtaking naivety on the part of anyone who believes it.

 

Okay point taken Marcus, being very young during the end of the 'Troubles', I was not as informed about the more serious tortures inflicted on Republicans here, but your post has inspired me to research more into these matters.

I hope that Republicans and Unionists can unite on matters concerning Iraq and Afghanistan, and speak against the torture that (a certain number of) US forces are inflicting on Iraqis because of their race and religion. We lived through this, so lets show the innocent Iraqis and Afghans our sympathies and support.

 

Well there is pressure on the Irish govt. now to send troops to Iraq itself on a side note. What our rather small army is meant to contribute is debatable to say the least mind you.