Patriotism?

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Yeah. 20 bucks on that we are going to see his face on the news of English hooligans in Portugal.

If not, I bet he is one of the chosen Englishmen that are banned from the games the English national team will be playing.

 

Apeman --

So what you are saying is that all patriots should limit their enthusiasm to sporting events? Maybe we should round them all up and assign them special seating. (I do so wish Chandos was here. )

It is possible to be patriotic without hating other countries....and I think you confuse racism with nationalism -- they are quite different.

 

As you can see I put 'sports' between brackets, it was just an example, especially with the European Championship of football beginning next saturday. The word 'event' was what I meant, sports or otherwise. The point was that people who love their country are good people, people who love their country and hate every other country are somewhat blind to the ways of the world.

That first group are consisting of patriotic people.

That second group is consisting of nationalistic people.

Do you see how close these groups are, my point is: it's a thin line.

Who's they?

If 'they' are people who are genuinly cheering for their country, then 'they' IMO are patriotic people.

If 'they' are people who are coming to the stadium in search of a fight with the opposing team, then 'they' shouldn't even be there.

Anyway, again I used sports as an example. What I generally mean and already said is that there is fine line between patriotism and nationalism/racism.

I don't know if you've read my post at all Spellbound, it clearly says: CAN LEAD TO
The arrow is the lead to part, was that not clear?

Tell me the difference between a man/woman who hates, actually HATES another human being because they live in another country. And a Man/woman who hates, actually HATES another human being because they have a different skin color.

Both of these people should be educated in the ways of the world, both cases are severely extreme and simular in nature and I see no reason to view them as anything but the same.

 

I'm having problems with this statement. My problem is that I can't think of an example of someone who actually hates someone because they live in another country. Then I'm having problems connecting that to patriotism. As I said earlier, I consider patriotism a pride thing and a positive thing. I don't quite get the connection that it is a negative emotion such as racism.

 

Myself, I'm not very patriotic, and I think that it was nationalism that ultimately lead to the World Wars. (IIRC from my history classes.)

 

Yes I read your post and what you said was that patriotism CAN LEAD to racism, implying CAUSATION. No one is questioning the fact that they are both equally heinous attitudes and the same in the level of hate, but that is quite different from saying that Patriotism causes Racism. I don't believe it does, even in its extreme.

 

... maybe here...

At least the WW2 was started because germany felt supressed by the "winners" of WW1; thus willingly followed any person (in this case Adolf) who promised them something better.
IIRC here too

The opportunity makes the villain...

But:

The amount of patriotism, imo, differ in every country. Take us: our day of independence (I don't think it's called that, but...) passed without too much notice. Our neighbours, Norway, celebrate it readily. My dad said kiddingly "we have not been at war enough recently"... Could that be it?

 

Felt suppressed? FELT SUPPRESSED????

After the first world war Kaiser Wilhelm II fled to the Netherlands and he left broken Germany with the bill of 33 billion dollars, struggling with this bill and repairing war damages the inflation sprung from 4.6 million marks to one dollar to 4.7 trillion marks to one dollar overnight in 1923.
In 1929 the Wall Street Stock crash rose the German unemployement rate from 8.5% to 29.9%.
While the German people were suffering, most Jews still were nice and cosy with all their saved money, of course the Jews were suddenly seen as their enemy, they always were!

Better start thinking about that before throwing around with those rolleyes smilies...


Edit:
Yes they saw Hitler as their savior, and as sofar, you only have hindsight and a "superior moral" to prove them wrong.
OF COURSE they saw Hitler as their savior, he led the recovery of a broken Germany to the Third Reich, a nation that was to be everlasting, under him the unemployement rate almost became nihil, he brought roads, wealth, and a union of Austria and Germany, the Germans were suddenly proud to be German again. The Germans were freed from the yoke of the Versailles treaty.
Unfortunately their blind hate brought the Germans to the endlosung, the final solution.

This teaches us a lesson that we constantly forget, to love your country, you must hate something that is the opposite of your country and its ideals.
In the cold war, the Western world hated the communists, because communism meant oppression and America freedom, and vice versa.
When your love is blind, droned in, your hate will be just as blind.

Beware love, for it will cost you something more than you bargained for.

[ June 12, 2004, 00:46: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Sorry... Used the wrong word there... Maybe I meant opressed

But my point was that they looked upon Hitler as their savior.


Didn't get much sleep last night...

 

I totally agree with you morgoth, and if not for the extreme examples in my post it might have been clear before.

Is there no difference between 'causes' and 'can cause' you make it seem that patriotism always leads to racism, and that's not what I said or meant.

[ June 12, 2004, 10:03: Message edited by: Apeman ]

 

What a cynical world you must live in. There is no universal law that states love and hate must live in equilibrium. Does this mean you must hate someone because you love your mother?

 

Well if my mother was raped, then I would pretty much hate the rapist, eh?

But my last post was more meant like, if you love your country, then you will end up hating something that is the opposite of your country, one thing leads to the other.
The universe may not have a law for love and hate being in equilibrium, but there is something called a law of casuality.


BTW, as I just have noticed wathcing my avatar, what is my shadow doing with a shadow??
Lol, now I found out

 

I've said this before.

The world isn't binary. It's not on and off, 1's and 0's, black and white.

Just because you hated Nazi Germany doesn't mean every form of Nationalism and Patriotism mimics it. You have to make the call each and every time, you don't just put out a blanket law to make it easy on yourself. The world is a teeming colony of cesspool bacteria, and sometimes you throw some chlorine in and sometimes you throw a little acetone in.

Fight your own inner demons in the privacy of your own home. Don't push your demons onto me.

[edit: Also, Canada SUCKS.]

 

Of course the world is not black and white, but how cam love be defined in a world void of hate, how can hate be defined in a self void of love?

 

@ ejsmith:
Well, at least I understood the last part of your post, so I'll just say:

Oh yeah?!? Well, *insert witty comment/insult about ejsmith's country of origin (whatever that may be) here, complete with indignant smilies, like this - *



@ Morgoth - I disagree that love of country inevitably leads to hate of other countries. It may very well lead to a lack of understanding, but hate is not necessarily a natural consequence.

 

I'm a little concerned for myself, because ejsmith makes perfect sense to me...maybe I should switch to decaf .

As far as "Patriotism" at events goes...there's a simple formula...

(Patriotism + crowds)/beer = Nationalism

No Mogoth...I disagree, love can exist without hate. Love is not dependent upon the existence of an object of hatred.

Likewise patriotism can, and does, exist without racism.

@Splunge: I really knew how you meant your earlier comments, just couldn't resist a chance to poke at you

 

Hacken Slash, what kind of math do they teach you down there in the U.S. of A.?

By your formula, the more drink you beer ( ), the more you lean towards patriotism vs. nationalism.

The correct formula is, of course:

(Patriotism + crowds + DennisPrager^Dubya) * beer = Nationalism

 

Hacken, love may exist, but not defined.

Splunge, all hate comes from lack of understanding.

 

Sorry, I must have had a few too many beers. I had a Differential Equations professor in college who used to say that we had "raised our answer to the 'beer'th' power" when we got an answer terribly wrong

So, Morgoth...you are saying that love is "undefined" in the absence of hate? Please explain.

 

I believe that love is the opposite of hate, what if we wanted to define love without circular reasoning or explaining what hate is. I don't think we can.