Please tell me there are more Atheists out there...

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Wow, there's a lot of stuff here. Ok, hard-core christian (baptist), here. Whole Revelation, rapture, end of the world thing gets me excited. Love God and everything about him. First, let me cover some basics.
Science does not, has never, and does not attempt to disprove God, gods, or religion of any kind.
Science is not this perfect, absolute truth that explains everything. Science is a guess by humans that seems to be true most of the time. Science is continually finding out that science was wrong and needs to be corrected. If we were wrong ten years ago, what makes you think we can't be wrong now?
History does not disprove God. On the contrary, many events in history absolutely defy science, logic, statistics, and all the reasoning of man, suggesting, but not proving, that there is some supernatural element to the universe. Science often does the same.
Religion is not a 'plague on the universe that has never made the world a better place'. How many charities are there that are atheistic? How many hospitals are named after Nietzsche?
Yes, many wars have been started in the name of religion and many people have been killed for 'blasphemy', but the VAST majority of these incedents used religion as an excuse and completely, or partially, ignored the religious teachings they claimed to uphold.
Lets not use Catholicism as an example, people, there are so many things wrong with (roman) catholocism that it makes me embarassed that some people call it christianity.

Ok, now for the real stuff.
Phone_Tools: You're a gnostic? You believe that you have been granted a private knowledge from God? You think that the material is inherrantly sinful and that only though is holy? Wow, I thought they died off in 100 something AD. Maybe we're talking about different kinds of gnostic. Love the Einstein quote, though.

Whoever asked it: The Bible does not say gays are evil or bad, just sinners like the rest of us. The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin just like lying and murder. The Bible also tells us to love and forgive sinners, not to hate them. Hope this has clarified a few things.

Disciple of the Watch and Saber: Ok, I respect Saber's differentiation between religion and religious people quite a bit. I'm confused, though. If you all believe that there is no God, when we die we just die, and your own morality is the only one that maters, or whatever, why do you even care if other people believe something else or not. Not wanting to hear more about it is ok, but actively attacking it, and drawing out people's opinions on the issue? That doesn't make sense to me.

As for what I believe and why, I belive in God, the Trinity, Jesus Christ, that sort of thing. The thing you may not understand is that I don't believe a lot of the 'traditional christian dogma' that has infiltrated the church. I believe what the Bible and God ACTUALLY SAY.
When we die, the soul, sinner and saved alike, 'sleeps' until the day of judgment at the end of the Tribulation. The sinner then are cast into hell and the saved are, well, it kind of skips to the new heaven and new earth here, but there's a 1000 year kingdom on old earth in between, so I don't know what happens to them then.
Satan does not rule over hell, it is as much a punishment for the demons as it is for people. Satan rules over the earth in rebellion to the legitimate rule of God.
There is no unforgivable sin. If you repent and call on the name of Jesus, anything and everything is forgiven.
Life is not perfect because people are not perfect and we live in a fallen world (see Satan above). God lets bad things happen because they are a part of free will. Free will requires something to choose besides good/God. That, by definition, is evil, there's no other choice. The consequences of our actions are part of the whole free will thing again.
Hmm, that's about it for the moment. if I think of any others, I'll post them.

Oh, I believe in God because He has made His pressence and concern unquestionably aparent to me several times. As I have said in other posts, at least one, God talks to me.

 

[Edited out rules violation] - dmc

[ October 19, 2005, 00:04: Message edited by: dmc ]

 

As far as I know UNICEF has nothing to do with religion. I'm not sure about the Red Cross, because it's so old in origin. There are some in my country that I wouldn't blame you for not having heard of - for example one protecting children's rights, it's named after a former Finnish president called Mannerheim.

One thing that drives people to express their negative opinions of religion is that certain religious people spend so much time trying to convert us. A friend of mine gets these Jehova's witnesses knocking on his door on a monthly basis and he's sick of it. I've been given pamphlets just sitting in the park enjoying a brew. One was titled "The Bread of Death", another had a chimp on the cover eating a banana and a text "Forefather?"

I'm really fed up with that sort of thing. And since religious people think it's okay to preach their views to others, what's wrong with non-religious ones stating their views in turn?

 

Are we bringing *THAT* back up again?!? Let me reiterate ONE MORE TIME:

1-Beleive in WHATEVER YOU WANT, as long as you DON'T BOTHER ME!
2-I will NEVER have a positive opinion on religion. I stand by my beliefs that it's a *plague*, and if you don't like, then cry me a bloody river!
3-I prefer to be the master of my own life rather than the puppet of some "holy force". And if you don't agree with that, it's your own damn choice and I *DON'T CARE* about it!
4-I DO NOT beleive in the existance of any kind of "god". What is so HARD to understand in that?!?
5-You DON'T HAVE TO AGREE with me. Just *respect* my damn point of view and I will respect yours! WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND IN THAT?!?

There, was it clear enough?!?

[ October 19, 2005, 01:45: Message edited by: Disciple of The Watch ]

 

In your first post in this thread, you implied that religion is a kind of regression and is BS. So, respect?

Of course, if you really believe that religion is darkness, as it were, it unnerves me that you are content to let the multitudes of believers sit in that darkness.

 

One more time: You don't have to agree, DAMMIT!

If religion is darkness and people *have chosen* to sit in the darkness, then that's not my problem.

 

I involuntarely use that word when I am seriously pissed, which I currently am.

[ Then save your venting for PM, if you really must. ] - Beren

Oh, my apologies, Ô Omnipresent Authority Figure.

[ October 19, 2005, 22:21: Message edited by: Disciple of The Watch ]

 

I'm asking that the Government reflect the mores of what I believe to be the majority--those that are of religious belief which consider Homosexuality to be a greivous sin. By legalizing same sex marriage, the Government of Canada offended a larger group than they would have pleased. If the Government is not there to uphold the will of the people, then what the hell are we paying them for?

Actually, I laid that at the feet of those that those that abuse their position. I have, since, thought of another analogy. Basically it's like using company resources for your own agenda. Like Paul Martin taking the army's tanks out for a spin to impress someone then damages something important. It's not Canada's fault that their PM is an *******...

The laws came from God, the enforcement came from man.

Actually, the people of Israel grew as a society just like a child grows to adulthood. At first they are taught how to behave and do so because if they are bad they get spanked, and if they doo good, they get a cookie. Then as they get older, then they learn right from wrong for themselves. Likewise, the people of ancient Israel had to learn how to show love, then they could learn that they were commanded to love. Telling a child to preform an advanced Calculus problem really is mean when they haven't studied it. I haven't taken Calculus in about 12 years, so I'd even struggle with it...

I'm just pissed that the Government showed an extreme lack of regard for those that consider homosexuality to be a grevious sin. It's one thing to make it illegal to stone them for their obscene acts, it's another to tell them that it is perfectly all right. That is why many religious folks are upset.

LNT: Christianity teaches that we are dependent upon God for our survival (He allows for crops to grow by controlong conditions). We are dependent upon Jesus Christ for salvation from our sins. Humility is acknowledging this dependence...

Apparently he's editted that out since you pointed that out. But if he had his way, that would be a swearword, and nobody would know why. The word s*** was originally an acronym for Ship High in Transit, which was posted on crates of Manure so that they didn't start releasing methane gas when they got wet and blow the shiop apart when the crew came down with a lit candle or lantern to check on the shipment...

 

You pay them to make decisions for you, whether or not it's the one you personally would have made. If it really is a majority belief, I would imagine you'll have a chance to vote for someone running on that platform in the next election. Until then, you're screwed (figuratively, of course ).

Being part of the majority doesn't mean you get your way every time, just most of the time. I'm sure there'll be plenty of other opportunities to stick it to the "sinners" in the future.

 

The will of the people is one thing, but equality between people must be considered as well. Legalizing gay marriages might offend some people, but it doesn't affect them directly. It affects gay people quite directly.

And if governments always thought of just pleasing the majority, progress would rarely be made. There are some pretty insane laws throughout the world that do please the local majorities. In certain islamic countries domestic violence is perfectly legal, and since they suck in that attitude practically since they're infants, they'd get pretty upset if someone changed those laws. That doesn't mean the laws are good and just.

Please elaborate. Do you mean God stated "laying with a man like you would with a woman is a grievious sin", and man came up with stoning people who do it? If so, that's not what the book says.

I wouldn't focus too much on anyone's choice of swear words, they're just things you can say to substitute a physical expression of your anger. The original meaning of many words have been lost with time - the s*** story was completely new to me.

 

Is gnosticism the belief that God is, essentially, unknowable? Then I am somewhat a gnostic. I think there is a supreme force (God) that acts on the world, but I find many parts of the Bible hard to believe. This is particularly the case with the old testament, which very often is kind of like a glorified history of the Jewish tribes. Not to mention the "unchristian," so to say, amounts of slaughter and gore in it; it often doesn't read like a "holy" scripture.
For me, you find the good within yourself and you develop it in interaction with others. The ten commandments are essentially moral rules that you should try to live by, but they are valuable even without their religious meaning, as they are guidelines, by and large, for an ethical life. As a person of 21 years I am a bit lax when it comes to judging too harshly - others and myself. Probably when/if I become a parent I might be more conservative - but probably for the sake of giving a good example for my children.
If I am asked what religion I believe in, I would usually say I don't consider myself very religious, but would count myself an Eastern orthodox Christian. To be honest with myself, it would be a mix of some Christian, gnostic, atheistic and even some buddhist beliefs, probably (balance in life, etc).

 

Not quite; that's agnosticism, which would make you somewhat an agnostic. Judging by NOG's comments to Phone_Tools, gnosticism is significantly different.

 

Gnosticism was a religion in early AD Greece that believed that all matter (mass) was inherently evil and all thought (mind/spirit) was inherently good. God was purely good and thus could not have come in the flesh, as the christians were claiming. Not only that, but if the flesh was inherantly bad, than there was no sense trying to control it because sinning was just flesh doing what flesh did, so you could do anything you wanted. It didn't last long.

Disciple of the Watch: I wasn't attacking your viewpoint or your right to express it. I was just asking about your motives. I understand why religious people are so avid, but if you believe that religion is just other people wasting their time and if they don't bother you, you won't bother them, then I'm a little confused as to why you're doing all this. Of course if I mis-understood you at some point, please clarify.

 

The Old testament is mostly history of the people of Ancient Israel. Stoning became temporal punishment for certain more greivous sins, but this was instituted by the scribes and Pharisees who interpreted the laws. God only gave the basic laws, like the Ten Commandments, Laws forbidding sexual perversion, and the Law of Tithing and more. The death sentences was mortals enforcing God's laws before repentance and forgiveness were truly understood.

That depends on your definition of progress. Banning domestic abuse and the like are progress, but Gay rights wouldn't be. I look at progress as moving the state towards a more paradisical situation. This requires a solid foundation of social mores. When the state backs off on stances of morality, they do not progress towards this state, possibly making it worse.

 

NOG, your definition of what gnostics are isn't right at all. the word "gnostics" would mean people who try to find "gnosis". The meaning of gnosis is this (it is taken from another website):
"Gnosis is Greek for "knowledge." Gnosis is experiential knowledge, not intellectual or conceptual knowledge. The venerable science of Gnosis is the universal and essential knowledge of objective reality, and it expresses the means to arrive at knowing that reality for oneself, in ones own experience. It is, in its essence, the method to escape suffering, because the entrance into objective reality is the escape from the subjective Mind, within which we all suffer intensely. This science is exact and unchangeable and has existed for millennia. Gnosis has been expressed by all the world's great saints and is free of dogma, politics, fanaticism and sectarianism. "

it is essentially the same thing the ancient gnostics practiced, allthough most information about them isn't quite accurate. If you want some practical info about it go to www.gnosticweb.com or www.gnosis-usa.com. yeah and it's pretty much what i try to "believe", for lack of a better word.
ok i hope that clears it up,
-PT

 

That's an interpretation, one of many. I recall that in most parts of the book defining those laws Moses has a private meeting with God on that mountain of his, and then comes to tell the people what has been ordered. Although...now that I think of it, I think there are instances where he doesn't counsel God first. I ought to do more research sometime.

Here we obviously are of different minds. Allowing gay people the same rights as others doesn't, in my mind, harm anybody. Devout christians may think gays are harming themselves, but that's only *their* view. Shouldn't people be equal before the law, regardless of what religions say?

Please don't say I'm twisting the idea of the separation of church and state around now. I fully know it doesn't mean we should legalize everything the Bible forbids and vice versa.

But since denying gay rights is based on religion *alone* - there's no other reason to ban them besides what religions say - I see no point in it. It doesn't compare to incest or animalism or anything like that, where a person or creature is being harmed. A gay relationship involves two people doing what they do consensually. Even if you perceive it disgusting and wrong, they're harming no one.

By the way, gay sex was illegal only some time ago, and in some places still is. Would you prefer it that way? This is not an attack or accusation of any kind, I'm merely curious of your answer.

 

It isn't based on religion alone, there are lots of people who don't want gay marriages legalised because of other beliefs/opinions. The question is, is it a majority? This is why it should be put on a national ballot. Many states and cities have done this and found that the majority of their population supports traditional marriage, and wants gay marriages banned, but is it a national majority?

Phone_Tools: You're talking about a new gnosticism, then, which is ok, I just wanted to know.

 

Many would call that kind of beliefs/opinions prejudice and bigotry. I understand why religious people are against gay marriage: the Bible forbids it. As for others: what do we care what they do? Why are people so interested in tampering with other people's business?

If traditional marriage between a man and a woman is seen as something so "sacred" that a gay marriage somehow "sullies" or "dishonors" it for others, it sounds like a religious value to me. It could be called just a tradition, but that tradition and the criteria of who qualifies to practice it has its basis in religion.

 

Ok, lets look at another, well accepted law that is based purely on Judeo-Christian ethics: the illegality of prostitution. Should prostitution be made legal because its illegality is based on religious beliefs? Are people who don't like prostitution prejudiced or bigots? It really is the same thing. One of the government's jobs is to balance the opinions and desires of the masses with the needs and rights of the minorities. That is the problem here.