POLL: Don't wanna kill Rayic Gerthras

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@Caradhras - You really read a lot that isn't there, don't you?

Your 'murder and torture' deal: Yes, Edwin asks you,

"When you find Rayic Gethras, kill him. Question him beforehand if you like. Any insight into the Cowled Wizards is useful. A little torture would soften him."

A reply the PC can make is:

"Murder? Torture? We have no desire to commit such acts."

I assume my PC interprets murder in this fashion. The torture bit is just something Edwin wants the PC to do in his stead and I always thought optional.

Personally, I just have a problem with megalomaniacs with delusions of grandure and a tendancy to speak their thoughts outloud; re: Edwin. As it's been said in other posts, you don't have to do this quest. But, call me a powergamer, I want the xp. :shrug:

 

Incidentally, anybody averse to killing Rayic might be interested in Quest Pack, which provides a path to completing the associated quests without murdering him.

 

I'm not implying that there are no valid reasons to RP a paladin that would cooperate with the Shadow Thieves. I'm not trying to prove this. I only take advantage of the opportunity these boards provide for sharing different gaming experiences and see how others responded to some of the conundrums and quandaries that make this game so enjoyable and replayable although the options are limited by the game engine.
I'm at a loss because of Edwin's words, but I've changed my mind about the self defence argument (unless you begin to set traps around the wizard, of course).

 

Welllll, I *did* cite Godwin's Law (USENET jargon which states: "When one party in a conversation or debate feels the need to refer to Hitler, rational discussion has - for all intents & purposes - ended in that conversation or debate.") but I think we may have avoided by what you say later in this same post.

But my point for the analogy is my experiences with the Cowled Wizards (Imoen's 'trial' and imprisonment, Reyic's over-the-top reaction to my ATTEMPTING TO LEAVE, and Tolgerias' plotting, not to mention all the other CWs basically snubbing me in my inquiries) lead my pally to conclude that the law enforcement organization is NOT serving the public good, and is rife with members more interested in their own personal agendas than justly upholding the law. He would then take what actions he could to reform the CW as 'peacefully' as possible to end this injustice.

As such, Lawful Good is a very difficult alignment to stay with - you're constantly balancing the letter of the law versus the intent of same. And NO, these issues are not easy to deal with, but my PC would not stand by while injustice is done; resolve same without bloodshed WHENEVER possible - and as little disruption to government itself, as death, injury or chaotic strife is rarely a good result.

Yes, whatever he did would probably still cause problems, but NOT DOING ANYTHING would be even worse - inaction in the presence of evil could well cast a paladin down from his standing with his deity.

Further, the more I look at this, the more I believe that it would be very easy for a paladin to 'burn out' - constantly watching his companions, fellow members of his own order, questioning EVERYONE'S motives and actions and evaluating them by his own moral 'yardstick' would take a toll on his health, his relationships with friends and family (Keldorn, anyone?)

And actually your analogy of the CWs as Jedi is very apt...but the paladin could be interpreted as the same... ANYWAY, to carry the analogy, if the Cowled Wizards are the Jedi Order, the Council of Six would be the Republic Senate. Neither the CW nor the JO *rule* - Council is the government and the CW's are law enforcement. My pally would probably go to the corrupt's CW's superiors and voice his concerns as to the state of affairs. If reform can be accomplished this way, GREAT! If not, he'd seek out THOSE CW's superiors; etc. If the head(s) of the organization refuse to listen, pally would go over their heads to the Council of Six. Always acting within the laws and procedures of the nation itself. (and there's a reason a 1st/2nd ed paladin has to have a high CHA )

But to go back to your analogy: if the Jedi Order discovers that a member of their organization is not adhering to their precepts - acting in a selfish or unlawful manner - they would take action. They would hold violence to the absolute last resort; persuading the 'fallen' Jedi to 'return to the Light' would be first and formost. But they would not sit back and let the situation continue.

Oh, and I just read you most recent post - this merely adds the Shadow Thieves to the list of 'things to clean up' for my paladin after the plot ends. And comparing the two organizations, I'd be confident the ST would be higher on the list than the CW.

 

Assuming the cowled wizards are corrupt, does it make it right for a paladin to try and convert them to his principles? But I'm not convinced they are corrupt.
They only arrest Imoen because she has broken the law, even if she didn't meant to she actually committed a felony. You can blame Tolgerias for his plotting but in the end he only wants to investigate the sphere which is understandable since it is in his jurisdiction; if you adopt this perspective Valygar's behaviour goes against the common good.
Shouldn't the people be entitled to be ruled as they intend rather than have a holier-than-thou foreigner coming from the North tell them how they are supposed to live their lives and regulate crime, going against their most ancient traditions and customs.
Who said Rayic Gethras is a rogue cowled wizard? He is agressive, that much is true, but as far as I can see he is only doing his job: investigating Edwin's activities.
Edwin (and Xzar btw) is certainly up to no good (lichdom anyone?).

 

But, you get the opportunity to talk to Valygar about his 'murdering of two Cowled Wizards'. This can be resolved in a peaceful and nonviolent manner.

 

Why do so many people confuse LG with LN? The law is not the way -- it is a tool to provide for all. Paladins live for good deeds, not lawful actions. A paladin would willingly sacrifice all to bring down an unjust law or regime.

The paladin is not perfect and cannot possibly do the right thing every time. For those time where a slight lapse in judgement occurs (such as trespassing in Rayic's home) a penance may be required -- unfortunately, Bioware has not allowed for a proper atonement in their games for paladins (paladins can even have a hoard like a dragon).

However, the right to defend himself/herself is always a perogative with a paladin and trespassing should not be met with deadly force -- hence, we have a dead Rayic. I think is was a slight oversight on Bioware's part to not allow a peaceful resolution, but it was fun killing the mage nonetheless. Granted, if a number of armed people I did not know killed my pets and made their way for my bedroom, I might introduce them to my friends Mr Smith and Mr Wesson....

Above all it's important to remember it's only a game.

 

Here's an argument for killing Cowlies being Lawful:
They don't even follow their own laws! They cast spells at will, and aren't even consistent with their own behaviour towards infractions. They grabbed Imoen off the street for a simple Magic Missile in self-defense, but you can summon a pit fiend who starts killing the populace and only receive a warning! There is no rhyme or reason governing their reactions; they enforce their 'law' based on a whim of the moment.

The extreme contrast between wealth and poverty in Athkatla also hints at government by chaos. The Cowled Wizards seem to rule at their leisure, much like a local mafia (hardly lawful). They extort outrageous sums of money from spellcasters and punish those who do not (or cannot) comply. They make agreements and then break them at will. Any of their number who fail at an appointed unsavory task are disavowed and silenced. The Cowled Wizards are even worse than the Shadow Thieves, and IMO there is no governing body in Amn. The Council of Six is simply a figurehead for public approval of the Cowlies' unlawful actions.

Should you wish to play Lawful Good as 'Lawful Stupid' (not my term, don't flame me) and assume that the Cowled Wizards have good intentions and goals behind their actions, then by all means assist them in their endeavors as you would assist any other. But even playing an LG character, I still can't contain the inner cynic that tells me that something is rotten in Athkatla and a proper order (governed by an un-influenced Council) must be restored.

 

@ Felinoid

They govern by the Golden Rule; whoever has the gold makes the rules. There is a government of Athkatla; you're confusing the ideas of government (one organization that in some way controls the actions of its citizens) and a democratic/republic government. Not all governments are lawful, in the real or imaginary worlds.

The Cowled Wizards are a powerful governing body; they make you follow their laws, which if you choose to break, they will punish you for it. I agree that they do run very a very similar system as a mafia but they are still running a government. They have set rules (no license means you can't cast magic) irregardless of the reasoning behind it. They don't break their own rules because I'm sure that each wizard in their ranks have their own license (whether purchased or not).

I disagree also on their governing actions. You say that they arrest Imoen for casting magic missile in self-defense but give you a warning. They don't care about the local people (as many governments don't) so don't care if they get killed by a demon. They care about people using magic. Why? Because only people with magic could ever take down such a large organization of magic-users. They arrest Imoen because: 1) she did break their rules irregardless of reasons and 2) Irenicus demanded it. They chose to get him to go quietly by arresting her than continue fighting. They work exactly like a lot of real world governments.

 

Very interesting post UCLAParadox.

Like most people I think it is an oversight of the game that there are actually no peaceful option.

Valygar is my favourite NPC and although my evil PCs usually open the sphere before delivering him to the cowled wizards, my good/neutral always take him along.

Has anyone tried the component of the MOD mentioned by SimDing0?

I'm trying to find arguments in defence of the cowled wizards and it's difficult, they are all what you said and more... even more so since I just thought about the two wizards in Spellhold who talk about taking advantage of Imoen.

In the abstract it looks very easy to RP a LG character but when you think about certain set of circumstances it becomes more and more complicated:

So perhaps not "Lawful Stupid" but rather "Lawful "

EDIT an old thread about Tolgerias being CG

 

Yeah. I do think it's a problem they didn't give you a peaceful option; but then again I also think it was sort of their way of saying "Well, you either got to kill him or not, cause he's not going to leave the city so you either have to roleplay or rollplay."

Anyway, here is how I see LG (may be different than you but that's ok; that's why we roleplay):
Lawful Good characters want to protect innocent people above all else. They will not sacrifice innocent lives to stop someone evil whereas a Chaotic Good character might. To illustrate what I mean I have an example:

A evil person (say mass murderer) takes a hostage; he demands that he will kill the hostage if the PC doesn't let them escape. A CG character may say "Screw it, this guy is going to kill more people if I let him get away" and go after the guy not letting him escape which may or may not cost the hostage their life. A Lawful Good character will have a harder decision; but I think will ultimately not make that sacrifice and would choose to find some other way to get the evil person. This of course changes with say a small time theif. Both characters would likely let them go for now because the damage in the long run is lower.
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So I agree that it is complicated. But here is how I see it with Rayic (and therefore how my characters see it):

There is a very powerful organization of seemingly a very large number of mages. They, could, if they choose, likely end a lot of problems in the city and surrounding areas. These include: the CC fighting pits, the slave trade, the prevalence of thieves, the buried Demi-lich, the vampire threat, the murders in the docks, et al. However, they choose not to. Because this group has the power to end these evils (which I think that all good characters would agree are evil) at a minimal cost to the group, my good characters expect this group to do it.

However, they do not. In fact, they hinder my group's quests to end this by requiring a license to cast magic which would help me survive as well as my quest to save a lifelong friend (which I would definately be willing to give for whether it be money or items or whatnot). I try to follow their rules in getting Imoen released however they offer no recourse.

So my characters as given a choice: you need help getting back Imoen and you can only get it from thieves (never ever consider the vampires help when good). Yes, they are thieves but I need help to get Imoen and I will not allow Imoen to remain incarcerated.

To raise the money needed, I choose to help the thieves with their problem. To do so requires me to kill a Cowled Wizard. Now, I do not want to kill him because, as a LG character I do not know his crimes. But I know what they, as a group, chose to do. They condoned all the things mentioned above as well as charming Imoen to what they wanted (I always felt glad when Irenicus kicked the snot out of them). They didn't help solve the murders in Umar Hills (the Cowled Wizard there comments its not his problem) or help stop a growing Beholder problem in their city. To me, they side with the evils mentioned because they slow me down and I oppose those groups.

So when given the opportunity to get some help in rescuing Imoen, buy better equipment so I can smite more evil, donate more to temples (which I do regularly in my games), I choose to kill Rayic because he represents a group that I despise. I will strike at this corrupt group whenever I am able. I never take Tolgerias' quest and refuse to help the Cowled Wizard make the golem work (I have killed the guy more than once). To my LG characters, they represent a government that is corrupt and is no longer helping represent a the people that I have sworn to protect. Therefore, their deaths are acceptable; I will bring their organization as low as I can.

 

UCLA: I think you have it backwards. The view of individual versus society is crucial for law/chaos. A lawful person believes the needs of the society outweigh the needs of the individual (hmm... sounds familiar 'need of the many outweigh the needs of the few' ... 'or the one'). A lawful person would rather see regulation to ensure proper behavior of the citizens (proper behavior is different for evil, neutral and good characters).
The chaotic person believes individual rights are paramount, i.e., the rights of the individual must not be interferred with by a society. A chaotic character would believe a person should live according to their own conscious, rules are an annoyance.

A good person is one who would willingly risk their life for another, an evil person would not hesitate to put someone elses life on the line. Generous versus selfish.

For LE, rules are to benefit the LE character. CE, rules don't matter. CG, doing the right thing is most important even if against the law. LG, fairness is important, unfair laws should be fought against and fair laws upheld.

So here is how I see the four corners of the alignment grid and how they would view a hostage situation where an innocent bystander is threatened:

LE -- Would willingly allow the death of an innocent if such an act would raise the LE character's standing in the community. Would prevent the death if the act would benefit the LE character.

CE -- Doesn't really care what happens to the innocent. Would do whatever is most beneficial at the time to the CE character.

LG -- Will do everything possible to prevent innocent death as long as the threat to the community is eliminated (the innocent can die if it is the only way to protect the community). May be willing to exchange places with the innocent.

CG -- The innocent individual must be saved at all costs. May be willing to exchange places with the innocent.

To me the notion "Screw it, this guy is going to kill more people if I let him get away" is a good notion, that is also lawful and not chaotic. Chaotic isn't interested in the community (the law enforcement should be able to do their job), only in protecting the individuals. This may change if the CG character is the ONLY person capable of stopping the evil from future attacks (the entire town becomes the innocent needing protecting).

 

You don't have to kill RG to get Imoen back, even if you choose to side with the Shadow Thieves (which makes sense seeing what Bodhi is up to).
The wizard in the Umar Hills? He is clearly selfish but IMO killing him is almost like killing Nalia's aunt: it makes you feel warm inside but it is not good at all.
The cowled wizards are a rotten bunch, does it mean every single member of their organization should be killed?
They don't put an end to the evils UCLA listed yet they are involved with the planar sphere (magic) don't care about the murders (not their field)... does nonintervention mean that they are accomplices?
What about slavery? Freeing the slaves in the CC doesn't put an end to slavery in the realms (though it's a good place to start) a good character will most probably do something, but wiping out an entire organization regardless of their members' responsibility, guilt or involvement is IMO a bit extreme: kill them all the gods will know their own.
I agree with T2Bruno about the examples, a CG would care about the hostage's life.

 

You're right about me mixing it up. However, I think my point still stands (sort of).

I know I don't have to kill RG to get Imoen back. My point is that to get Imoen back I have to help the thieves. The Cowled Wizards are no help and neither is anyone in the Government and I can't help the vampires. So now I need the thieves help but they want money. So I walk around trying to get some; they offer me 15,000 (or 10,500 or whatever it was) to check on a problem they have in their affliate building with another guy. I check it out. I get to Edwin who eventually wants me to kill Rayic.

So here's my thinking (which I will totally admit if it's illogical) from a LG point of view [some of which is not fully backed up in game but how I see the situation]:
Laws are made by the government. The government gives blanket control to the Cowled Wizards. They relish this power and, while they do do what they are supposed to, show little resolve for helping anyone. They use their power and semi-legitimacy to further their power (by requiring licenses and stopping further magic). This is shown in the actions surrounding the Valygar situation (they want in the sphere and will kill Valygar to do it), the Umar Hills Cowled Wizard (doesn't care about the people dying while having the power to do something about it), as well as taking Imoen because Irenicus demands it (she would have gotten a warning otherwise).

Doing nothing simply because they can not solve the problem is not a good reason (Caradhras mentions slavery) and this is the functional difference between the Cowled Wizards and Nalia's aunt (and is a cool cut scene in BG2 about true power). Nalia's aunt has little power. She does control a large portion of land and can rule over it, but ultimately it was Nalia's father that was the real ruler. She was arrogant and annoying but she followed the laws of the land and, from all descriptions, everyone was pretty safe. The appearance of the bandits occurs after the keep is attacked (which means something was keeping them out before that) meaning that the Nalia's aunt(/Nalia's father) used their power to create a stable society.

The Cowled Wizards however did not create that society. Their power was much greater with a lower responsbility; their job was to prevent people from casting magic if they did not have a license. Once you have a license, you can cast as many spells and do as much damage as you want. This, to me, suggests that their goal was not regulation but control. They did not patrol looking to help people being adversely effected by magic but looking for people who haven't paid a tax to use magic in the streets; the scroll-seller in the back of the Adventurer's Mart comments that she is not afraid of the . This suggests to me that the society that T2Bruno suggest that a LG character would wish to protect is better off without the Cowled Wizards around. They weild power without responsibility to the society they claim to protect and, as seen in Valygar's case, will sacrifice an individual to gain more power. Thus, to protect society from a group of mages who weild total control, a LG character could be reasonable in killing one of their more powerful members (as Edwin says something to suggest that Rayic is watching him).

Additionally, there is nothing to suggest that Edwin is evil. Some characters may know him from the first game though it is possible they would never have met. Therefore, working for him wouldn't be hard (he could well be a neutral mage for all you know when you first walk up). Thoughts?

 

It's considered common knowledge that a Red Wizard of Thay is evil.

 

There's plenty to suggest Edwin is evil. He's involved with the Shadow Thieves, specifically with Mae'Var. While that's certainly not enough to say for sure, it contributes. The casual disregard he has for other people's lives (murder and torture) doesn't speak terribly well of him either. And of course there's the ever-useful Detect Evil spell, or perhaps a Know Alignment spell.

 

@UCLAParadox

Sorry, but I don't think your argument hold. A paladin -imho- would never side with thieves for the sake of aquiring money for a higher purpose, when there's plenty of other ways; let's just name the CC-quest, Trademeet and the D'Arnise-quest. Once a paladin (or any other LG character) has finished those quest, he/she has enough money/weapons/items to go on searching for Imoen without forging alliance with doubtful groups or kill people they've never met before.

 

Let's look at this through 'game only' eyes.

You and your party emerge from a collapsing tunnel and see the man (Irenicus) who has held you prisoner and (presumeably) tortured you. Irenicus is arguing with what looks to be thieves or thief types (bards). After a fight inwhich only one thief escapes, Irenicus turns his attention on you. He and Imoen exchange words, then missles. People teleport in; you assume from their dress they are mages of some sort. The mages and Irenicus argue over the use of magic and four/five mages die. Eventually, the mages arrest Irenicus and Imoen for illegal use of magic.

I'm concerned about Imoen and want to find out wtf just happened and where she was taken. Beginning at the beginning, who was present? You, Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, Yoshimo, Irenicus, some thieves and some mages. Your party has no clue as to what's going on. That leaves three people: Irenicus (arrested with Imoen), the mages (know they are Cowled Wizards due to questioning the locals) and one thief.

I can't question Irenicus. I decide to start with the CW and talk to more locals. One mentions the government district. Okay, let's go. After talking to the two CW I find - one refuses any info about Imoen and Irenicus and the other, Tolgerias, offers me an 'exchange' of info. On my way, I get sidetracked by Gaelen Bayle, who offers the services of a 'group' for 20,000gp. Gaelen looks very thieflike. I decide to cut the chase and go directly to the thieves guild if I can find it.

OT - I'd still like to know who that thief was that managed to escape the Promenade fight.

 

@ Nightwood
Except you can get this quest before you get those. You could easily walk to the docks and simply by talking to everyone get this quest.

I can understand the hesitation of accepting the quest in the first place; I was just trying to justify why you'd kill Rayic.

Also, as for working for the thieves (which I admit seems unlikely for a paladin): You know there is a rival guild (the vampires). This is the worse of the two groups. Because you, at this point, can not directly fight them, making sure that the Thieves Guild is not destroyed is important. Nature hates a vacuum and when the Thieves Guild goes down, even if the vampires remain another group will step in.

(sort of an aside)
There is an argument to be made that you don't want to step too hard on the thieves guild. You want incompetent thieves and unless you're absolutely sure you can stop any actions, keeping what you got may be a good thing. The more pressure you apply, the harder it is for bad thieves who will leave. This means the only thieves you have are the really good ones. This will attract more good thieves as, with all the trade, there is a lot of money to be made. Now you're got a bunch of really good thieves you can't dislodge when you were dealing with less competent ones before. (and now for the spin): It may be more beneficial to society to keep the level of crime where it is than try to crack down a lot because it lowers the level of skill of criminals in the area (or something like that). Yes, it may not result in an increase in quality thieves but it may.

 

Well, i guess the actual problem is that the game offers only a limited amount of choice. For instance right after arriving in Athkatla you have to follow the little boy where you get the thieves-guild proposal. A LG-character (as always - imho) should immediately object to this with an answer like "Out of my eyes foul creature, I shall see the governor of this city and he *will* answer me" - but, you don't get far in the game if you try to behave like this.