POLL: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter

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They can if you exploit the Stronghold.

 

Felinoid, how do you exploit the stronghold? What do you mean?

BTW, it's my understanding that Stalkers could dualclass with only SoA installed, but not with ToB (weird if true, eh?).

 

Using the "Fallen Ranger -> dual -> Restore Rangerhood" method, as Abdel seems to be trying with his Stalker/Mage. The only difference is that R/C is a valid dual with the game engine, where Abdel's R/M combo may create all sorts of bugs or crashing because of the engine's limited values.

 

Fel you're such a cheat!?!
I'm afraid this won't work.
He is going to end up with a Fighter/Mage. In this case I guess I'm right. Well enough pessimism.

 

It's not cheating to change things back to normal. In PnP, you could dual pretty much freely, and one of my favorite characters was a Beastrider I dualled to a Transmuter, all within the rules. Having a worg to ride and a falcon familiar to scout was awesome.

 

I'd love to hear if that works.

Same with a Paladin/Mage.

 

none of the tough opponents in the game can be backstabbed. as such, swash/fighter is superior.

 

Yes but still, the Kensai half of it will prove to cause some insane amounts of damage to the more powerful creatures. Even if he doesn't last as long, he'll put up one hell of a fight before he goes down, backstab or not.

 

the k/t will not provide more damage than a s/f in the fights that matter, unless you are able to use traps.

 

I'm pretty sure there's going to be alot of people that disagree with you on that one! Kensai's were built to cause damage my friend. Kai is just another story entirely. They just wont last for ages, but cause a sh!tload of damage, exactly what I want!

 

how can a k/t outdamage gww or imp haste + critical strike? remember that i am only talking about tough opponents here so backstab is out of the question.

 

Some of the most dangerous enemies are humans or demi-humans, which are perfectly backstabbable. The end-bosses spring to mind, and Sendai's statues are excellent targets for multiple backstabbery. If you can't use backstabbing properly (i.e. on everyone you can) that's your problem, but don't assume the rest of us save it only for dragons and the like.

A Swash->Fighter may have staying power, but a Kensai->Thief doesn't need it. I prefer the finesse and tactical fighter to the brute slugger. Try taking a Swash->Fighter solo and you'll see what I mean.

 

which bosses can be backstabbed?

can mel, abazagail, demogorgon, or draconis be backstabbed. if not your point is moot, because everyone else is a pushover. backstab is a neat little trick, but it will not help you when you really need it.

[ December 30, 2005, 06:52: Message edited by: Sorun ]

 

No, he didn't say dragons or creatures of that category, but i believe what you're saying is that you think backstab is bad because you can't use it on every enemy, am i correct?

Backstab may not be used on every creature, but it sure as hell is useful! And just because you can't use it on a dragon doesn't mean it's classed as useless, because there's ALOT of other ways to cause extreme damage to a dragon.

Just as Fel said, try soloing a Kensai -> Thief and you'll see what I'm talkin about.

 

i never said backstab is bad. in fact i said that it is a neat trick.

what i said is that a s/f is better than a k/t in the dfficult fights (mel, demo, abaz, and drac). nothing i have read so far has convinced me otherwise.

 

My point is lacking in volume? Since it's words on a screen I guess I can agree with that. But moot it is not. So you picked 4 bosses that can't be backstabbed out of dozens. I've already mentioned Sendai, and will further mention Abazigal and Draconis. Their human forms may not be difficult, but why waste resources when a backstab can get you to the next stage that much quicker, and leave your options more open? Irenicus, Bodhi, Balthazar, pretty much any large group of high-level adventurers (the one in the sewers early in the game especially), the Guarded compound, half the Twisted Rune, drow galore, undead with level-draining abilities, mind-flayers...need I go on? If all you're worried about are the big guys you can mob, you'll have trouble with the people who can mob you (and vice-versa, I'll admit).

When you really need it is all the time. Backstab saves your character from having to go toe-to-toe with every little schmuck who decides you're fair game, keeping you healthy and hearty for the "big" battles. Unless you rest just before them, which is even cheesier than setting traps IMO.

 

draconis, demogorgon, abaz and mel are far more difficult than any example of a backstabable opponent you can give. as a matter of fact, each enemy or group of enemies in your example are weaklings compared to those i mentioned.

you contend that backstab is needed all the time? why should i waste my time hiding, walking behind an enemy and backstabbing when i can simply mow the whole lot of them down with none of the micro?

look, if you are going to argue the merits of the k/t to me you might as well bring up things like UAI because backstab just isn't going to win this debate.

 

Yeesh. Forget the thieves and go with a barbarian; it'd suit your style much better. Or perhaps you could try Diablo for pure hack and slash. But if you're determined to get an answer, it's this: why should I waste my time watching while my character trades blows with some nobody when I can just sneak up and take him out with a single blow? If all you do is sit back and let your characters do it for you, the game's just playing itself. You may dislike getting involved, but I thrive on the micro-managing.

Yet again, if you don't use a backstabber properly, it won't be as powerful. But if you know how to use it right, it can kick a$$ up and down the coast. Why do you think Scythesong made his "Guide to Blades"? You have to use a character properly to achieve its full potential. If you don't like to backstab, that's your thing, but don't let it color your perceptions on its usefulness. I've tried every trick in the book (not to mention a few that weren't), and everything is more effective or less effective in different situations. Even magic weapons and spells have a failing (magic golems).

One last thing: the reason you have so much trouble with mel, gal, and drac is likely your tactics. Brute force doesn't work very well against "bruter" force; I've never had much trouble with them after the first time.

 

Sorun, I see you're just picking out that backstab just can't be used against dragons ... soooooo what! Ask anyone who backstabs, I'm pretty damn sure they'll all tell you that they use it around 95% of the time. If you're concerned about killing the tough enemies that aren't able to be backstabbed, just read some of the other posts in here ... there's plenty of ways to kill a dragon in solo.

 

This is going down to comparing thief to fighter, eh ?
I, for one, think backstabbing is fun. And I'd rather have fun with weaklings at the first stages than save everything for some bigazz I most likely won't meet