POLL: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter

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Whoo, looks like I'm needed.

Scarlet Ninja-To is +3, with "save or poison" (awesome off-hand weapon for early game, but Crom Faeyr beats all).

Excuse me if I've missed something, but what mage and what spell?

*Buzz* Wrong. A kensai will have +4 to hit and damage by 13, while a swashie would need to get up to 20 to get that (at 15 they'd have +3). And a good K->T will have the kensai's proficiencies planned, eliminating the S->F advantage until very high levels. And a lvl 13 kensai will have -3 to speed factor (the initiative Drew was talking about).
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-Then you might like the Alora NPC mod. She's a halfling swashie, and thus can't be dualled. (Plus there's a small amount of BG1 nostalgia. )
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AC is a rather simple matter. With UAI, a K->T can wear heavy armor just like the S->F (really shouldn't be able to, but still...). The kensai gets -2 as a kit bonus, while the swashie gets -4 as a kit bonus at lvl 15.
Advantage: still S->F, but only by 2

 

It's a matter of taste really. The Swashbuckler complements nicely the ability of another class. I tried a single class elf Swashbuckler (to get the bonus with swords and bows ) it was disappointing, nowhere near the power of a dual S/F and not enough proficiencies either. IMHO the Swashbuckler ranks as a mediocre Fighter at best and loses the great advantage of the Thief class, i.e. backstab.

Ok it's +3; but what do you mean exactly by "early game"? Are you kidding? Isn't the Scarlet Ninja-to restricted to Monks? It can't be used without UAI.

Now let's compare:
K level 13 = 1250k XP
T level 24 = 3080k XP (for 1st HLA: UAI)
total = 4330k XP

T level 15 = 1100k XP
F level 21 = 3250k XP (2nd HLA already)
total = 4350k XP

To get UAI in the "early game" you have to solo which means that there is no party members to heal or protect the Kensai (no armour remember?)

A S/F would get almost the same bonus with ++ in Two handed weapons (no need to backstab). It's a pity only the K/T can actually wield Carsomyr.

Gotta love being the invisible man in full plate armour.

No missile weapons (except daggers and axes) and no armour for the largest part of the game... Even if he will become quite powerful, the K/T badly needs UAI...

 

Yes, I was talking about a solo; otherwise it's really not worth getting. Sorry for the confusion.

And the K->T gets even more with the same proficiency; it all adds up.

You're kidding me, right? You'd put an S->F in full plate!? That's just stinky limburger. (And a swashbuckler may not be able to backstab with stealth, but they can still scout.) I was talking about the finest leather armors, so that the S->F and K->T could use their thieving abilities without needing to constantly change armor. And if you really want to get into that, you can stealth and then change armors with no effect other than automatically failing your next check in the heavier armor. (Complete BS, but it works. )

 

@ drew : i would not consider using the offhand weps you mentioned as they are inferior to so many other off hand weps. as such, the difference between GWW and imp haste is three attacks per round (unless i am missing something). pretty significant imo. also, the S/F can use improved haste w/critical strike, something the K/T can not do.

@ thetruth : i should have worded that statement differently to be sure. that said, i did state that UAI is the K/T's real selling point a few posts later. also, i agree about not dualling the swashy to a fighter.

 

True. But you can't backstab with a two handed weapon (I don't even mention the quarterstaff thing). A K/T wielding Carsomyr isn't going to have 10 attacks so he is better off with dual wielding.

Yes I would for any real big fight at least (have you seen Willow? Mad Martigan wears a heavy armour in battle ).
Don't forget this guy is a Fighter not a Stalker. In a real fight his thieving abilities are almost useless. Whenever scouting is needed you can always put on a leather armour. Otherwise his AC won't allow him to stand his ground long enough (especially with the lower HP).

I don't.

These characters are both very good at their jobs, they share some bonuses but they are very different in the way they are to be played. A Kensai/Thief being closer in that respect to a Stalker whereas the Swashbuckler/Fighter is meant to be a tank with thieving abilities.
If in the end the K/T is going to be slightly better (UAI and Kai tip the scale IMHO) it is much harder to solo one especially at the beginning of the game whereas the S/T doesn't present any particular difficulty.

 

Well you did forget to mention one thing, something that is frequently over-looked because of how good dual-wielding can be. GWW gives you 10 attacks even while using a shield. I can't tell you how many times I have positively slaughtered groups of beholders with GWW and the Shield of Balduran.

Counter-balancing that is Improved Haste & Kai. It's not quite as good, but you get it earlier and much more often, and it lasts longer per use (10-12 seconds vs. 6). Also, half the enemies in the game have helmets. The K->T also has better access to IH since they can use scrolls and items, whereas the S->F can only use items unless you waste 3000K before the dual.

(P.S. What happened to the caps? It looked better that way. )
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Okay, then I will. Staff of the Ram +6 is an awesome backstabbing weapon, especially since the "push-away" effect can allow you to retreat and re-stealth before they even regain their feet, leaving them open for another backsmack ((tm) The Magpie).

True I suppose, but you could do the same thing with a K->T. They can tank if need be, it's just a matter of two points of AC vs. many HP. After all, what do you think happens after the backstab? I'm not just going to waste the rest of that Kai.

 

You can't change armour in the middle of a fight (unless you exploit the fog of war). Anyway, backstab and full plate?
I'm disappointed you even mention the Shield of Balduran... That's the epitome of cheese. Even worse than the quarterstaff used to backstab.

 

Like I said, it's cheesy. I also said that I have an irrational dislike of thief variants in plate, meaning I would never use it myself.

No, the PI exploit is the epitome of cheese. The Shield of Balduran is just a hideously over-powered item. But the programmers' cheesiness of encountering more than one at a time balances that out. Beholders are solitary creatures, and so racist against against their own kind that they make slavery look like Hands Across America. We're talking a size difference (smaller or larger) qualifying as a killable inferiority. If you ever see more than one beholder, they will be fighting.
[/D&D rant]

You ever been smacked over the back of the head with a small tree? That'll put you down but good. Or perhaps had a long piece of wood forcefully jammed into your spine? Hurts like hell and could even cripple you. Arguments like these are what prompted "sneak attacks" in 3e rather than backstabbing.

Something else to consider is Greater Deathblow; very handy against groups of flayers before you get Brine potions (among others).

 

Can a K/T really use KAI more than a S/F can use GWW?

Also, here is a question that I really don't have the answer to. What is the difference in the thac0 a K/T vs a S/F can achieve by the end of TOB?

Oh yea, mind flayers <<<<<< chaotic commands

[ January 01, 2006, 02:11: Message edited by: Sorun ]

 

Kensais get one use a day of Kai for every four levels, starting at level one. Though thinking about the Kensai->Thief, it would only be 4 a day if you dualled at lvl 13, so I guess it's only more until the S->F starts getting ****loads of Critical Strikes. Still, they get them earlier.

THAC0 progression ends at lvl...damn, I don't know; EoU must've overwritten mine, because it goes all the way to 50. Gonna have to fix that. Well, PnP progression stopped at 20, I think, and I'm pretty sure BG progression stopped at 21. So base THAC0 for the S->F would go all the way down to 0, and K->T THAC0 would depend on what level they dualled at (THAC0 8 for lvl 13).

EDIT:

I know, but S->F's can't cast spells, so a solo...
And I was only using flayers as an example. With Imp. Haste & Greater Deathblow, an S->F becomes like a small, directable, more powerful Cloudkill.

 

So the S/F will have a thac0 eight points lower than a K/T? I know for a fact that thac0 progression stops around lv 20.

 

Well, if it stopped at lvl 20 (as it should), the S->F's THAC0 would stop at 1. It's still a definite point for the S->F though, unless you're willing to waste a ****load of XP on Kensai levels for your K->T. Might be worth it for a solo, but then there's the extra bounceback time...

 

THACO progression stops at level 21 for the fighter.So a K-T would have base THACO 8 against the 0 of the S-F.
But if you add in the g.mastery and the Kensai's class bonus plus the fact that you will be using high enchantment's weapons,there is no problem for the Kensai-Thief.

 

Assuming the K/T dualled at level 15 his base thac0 would be 6. You would also subtract an additional 5 for his Kensai bonus, making his base thac0 1. The S/F dualled at 15 would have a base thac0 of 1 from his fighter levels -3 more for swashbuckler levels. That would make his base thac0 -2......a 3 point difference. One word. Tenser's transformation. Your S/F can't use it. But the K/T can. That cuts the thac0 difference down to a measly point, puts the damage even more in the K/T's favor and means that the K/T gets more than double the HP.

As far as the offhand weapon goes.......don't forget that in IE games the offhand never gets more than one attack. That means your Improved Hasted, Stoneskinned, Tensered K/T is running around with 9 attacks per round (10 if he has the gauntlets of extreme specialization) and is going to be very hard to hurt in addition to having more than twice the HP. He'll also get a nice AC bonus from Tenser. Of those 9 (10) attacks a measly one attack will be made with his (slightly less effective) off hand. The other 8 (9) will be made with his main hand.

Don't forget the K/T can also cast PFMW. And spell immunity.

 

Good point Drew. Spells from scrolls won't last that long though.
The S/F can use gauntlets too (and doesn't have to get UAI to do so).

The K/T is better in the end but try playing one... until you get UAI it's going to be a difficult solo.

Think about the ThAC0 of a pure Swashbuckler and you will see why I prefer a S/F.

The K/T is not a mage either and UAI can't replace a true caster. This is where traps, stealth, regular scrolls and missile weapons come into play.

 

Of course not, but Chaotic Commands is a rather specific spell, and you don't run into flayers that often. A K->T can use scrolls and a S->F can use Greater Deathblow and pray he's fast enough to chunk them all before they get him.

I've actually played a T->F solo (not swash, but still), and flayers were a definite problem without CC. Greater Deathblow to the rescue, though.

 

Basically, the K/T needs to cast a scroll of Tenser's to get a thac0 that is still not as good as the S/F's, and there are limited scrolls of Tenser's. All other scrolls are limited for that matter. A S/F can use imp haste and stoneskin anyway so those two are off the table.

While the K/T needs to dual wield to get 8 attacks per round with his main hand weapon, the S/F can get 10 attacks per round with a more damaging two handed weapon. Also, doesn't improved haste fatigue you after a while? I can't remember because I have not had use for it in ages.

Anyway, the two classes seem pretty balanced to me.

 

You're probably thinking of regular Haste; IH doesn't fatigue you. Regular Haste also doesn't give you double attacks in BG2, just one extra attack per round.

[D&D rant]
IH is . There's no such spell, and its effects are what regular Haste should be. The only difference is that Haste is supposed to age you a year (I suppose that's where they got the fatigue idea from). Damn cheesing !@#$%^(*!@$ programmers.
[/D&D rant]

Off the table is a little harsh. Certainly a very diminished advantage since adding one-time scrolls to uses-a-day doesn't add much, but not gone altogether. And what's this about Stoneskin; are you talking about the Gargoyle Boots?

 

Haste is supposed to age you a year? Damn. In BG2 all you need to do is take a nap and you are as good as new.

Yes, I was referring to the boots. Sure you get them late, but fighters have no need of them before hand w/all the awesome plate armor around. I think they add 4 skins/day (2 per use for 2 uses).

 

Yeah, but your K/T gets 5 skins when he uses a scroll. If you are soloing, you'll be glad that you can cast breach (and use the wand that casts it), and spell immunity. Time stop doesn't hurt either. Or Black blade of disaster, imprisonment, polymorph self, Gate, and (if your stats are high enough) Wish......you get the picture