POLL: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter

Remove all ads!

That's why I always preferred elves; aging from Haste, Wish (5 years per Wish IIRC), and the touch attacks of some undead just doesn't faze them as much as it does for a human.

@Drew:
Anyone can use Wands of Spell Striking, can't they? The numerous scrolls you can get from random encounters help a lot, though.

 

Yep, the K/T takes the cake in a solo game. The S/F has an edge w/Tactics & Ascension. An unmodded game w/ a party seems to come down to personal preference.

One thing though, how do you get by in SOA with a lv 1 thief in a solo game? I am sure plenty of people have done it, and I am sure that the levels fly by, just curious.

 

@Felinoid: Nope. The one that casts breach is only useable by mages and bards. The one that casts Ruby Ray is useable by warriors, even though casting Ruby Ray is not going to help a fighter kill a wizard.

It kinda makes you wonder what Bioware was smoking...

 

@ Drew

Arrows of dispelling.The easiest way of dispelling in the game IMO.Get blocked only by prot.f.magical weapons or mantles but an arrow of dispelling,dispells anything that hits.

Anyway a wizard is not problem for a fighter even without them.With the rings of air conrol for improved invisibility and weapons with elemental damage kills easily a wizard (Flail of ages is the ideal weapon).


@ Sorun

The easiest way is to do some quests leaving the reward part for your new class(f.e. solve the murders in the bridge district but talk to the officer for your reward and the EXP. after dualclassing).
You can do quests that don't require fighting (some of them in the graveyard).
Also after dual-classing you count on your equipment for some time,till you gain some levels in your new class.For example necklace of missiles
(fireballs),staff of fire (summons fire elementals) etc.
Also a thief gains EXP. from disarming traps.

 

Sure but he/she has many disadvantages: - May not use missile weapons (slings, bows and crossbows, darts) unless they also have a melee component (such as magic axes and daggers that can be both used in melee and hurled)- May not wear any armor- May not wear gauntlets or bracers.
Soloing a K/T in SoA is not going to be a walk in the park (still imho it's not as hard as soloing a Beastmaster ). The S/F has much more leeway in the entire game (losing the edge because of UAI and Kai, he is nevertheless a very, very good Fighter).
The main drawback of the S/F is the period in which the Swashbuckler levels are inactive (it takes ages if you're not soloing and this is very hard because you got into the habit of using Thieving skills and a more "subtle" approach to problems -it's possible to dual class before to avoid such a long period of 'inactivity' or later if you're patient, level 16 gives better Thief traps).
The K/T only comes into his/her own with UAI.

 

@Drew:
Hunh, it is only usable by mages and bards. I guess I never noticed because I don't use them much. I suppose even a veteran can learn something every now and then.

@Sorun:
Anything that's trapped or locked I'd leave for after I dual. Sweeping through Athkatla a couple times, I'd max out OL and FT at 100 and be gaining XP like a madman. Waiting to finish quests like thetruth mentioned helps too.

 

@The truth: arrows of dispelling are useless against liches and also wizards that cast mantle instead of PFMW.

@Caradhras: The K/T can wear any armor a thief can use upon dual classing and he still gets the +2 bonus to his AC. He'll also be able to use missile weapons. Don't forget that he can use throwing weapons just fine for the entire game. After UAI, he'll be able to use anything at all, whether it's prohibited by his kit or not.

 

Only when the Kensai levels are once again active. I've tried the Swashbuckler/Fighter and he regained his AC bonus that way (no AC bonus as a Fighter).

 

@ Drew

Yes.They should be useless against liches since they are of +1 enchantment (IIRC).But strangely I could hit with them Kangaxx in his lich form (Tactics' Kangaxx).I can't remember if the rest of the liches were immune to the arrows though.I didn't bothered using them since I had the axe Azuredge
As for mantles you just wait for the duration to run out.Just 4 rounds like PFMW.

 

^Ofcourse, improved liches with their improved Pit Fiends (OH the horror!) can make short work of an entire group in that 4 round...easily!

It still pains me that I can'T find a reliable way to dispel HEAVY protections those Liches put instantly. And with tactics, it is even worse, with Spell traps, all random protections and SIs:Abjuration and/or Divination. It makes for unparalelled fun though!

I once encountered kensai/thieves in Ritual quest of Tactics. They were deadly. SO deadly. Kai+backstab is a lethal combo! Blasted corpses. Into tiny chunks of fresh flesh...

I also heard that pure swashbucklers were among the most powerful builds, one high level killed Improved Irenicus and his gang when SOLOING. (and believe me, it is a quite feat.) Swashbuckler/Fighter sounds lame to me though.

 

Slightly off topic here, but I just want to interject that I'm so happy people are now saying the Kensai > Thief (and Blade) are making the most powerful characters!

When I first got this game, you couldn't go anywhere without people carrying flags for Kensai > Mages.

 

No one here has stated that the K/T is the most powerful character. In fact, one of the K/T supporters even admitted that the game is imbalanced toward arcane magic. UAI is one thing, but the K/T will never be able to use IA. Sorry, but F/M'm and K/M's are king of the hill. I prefer the multiclass, but there is a case to be made either way.

 

In light of the K/T and S/F debate, what about the Wizard Slayer(13)/Thief? He combines a lot of the powers of the two classes and introduces some of his own.

While he doesn't have Kai, his backstab is not bad at all, no less potent than a F/T multi, which is great at the backstabbing. Once he gets UAI, he is also able to hold his own comparably to the S/F in a big brawl and he's much easier before UAI than the K/T since he can use some armors.

Where he really shines, however, is in the fights where backstab doesn't work, as has been brought up many times. Improved Mages and the like aren't likely to be backstabbed with the Stoneskins and such they throw up as soon as you enter the area. The Wizard Slayer's 10% Cumulative Spell Failure takes care of all of that. For those of you that don't know how it works, the Spell Failure applies on every successfully rolled hit, no matter if you actually hit them or not. A successfully rolled hit depends only upon your thac0 and the AC of your target, meaning Protection from Magical Weapons, Stoneskin, Absolute Immunity, or immunity to +4 weapons is worthless. Even if you can't actually hit them, you can apply spell failure. Throw on improved haste and chances are, by the end of the round, there will be no more casting. Furthermore, the spell failure is actually a misnomer; it works on anything from dragon breath to Kangaxx's Imprisonment and everything in between.

And then, of course, you get all the abilities of a high-level thief without sacrificing your ability to fight those backstab-immunes. Quite a powerhouse for those willing to give the vastly-underrated Wizard Slayer a try.

 

This class combo gets even better if you get the wizard slayer enhancement from Ashes of Embers. I would happen to agree that this class combo is even more powerful than either of the two discussed in this thread.

 

Pretending for a minute that the combo needs any enhancement, what does the enhancement do?

 

More MR per level. Let's face it. A straight wizard slayer is pretty weak in BG2. The goal of the enhancement was to make it a more viable single-class option.

 

While yes, I would never take a straight Wizard Slayer, I find he's plenty powerful in any Dual Class. The 10% spell failure is so disgustingly powerful as to make the equipment restrictions and slow magic resistance progression more than bearable. But then again, once the Thief side kicks in with UAI, the equipment problem is obviously gone and magic resistance can easily be put to 100%. Quite a massive character, all in all.

 

You don't even need UAI. Once you've got the thief levels you'll be able to use any potions a thief can use if I remember correctly. All you lose out on is potions of heroism, invulnerability, and giant strength. Even without UAI what you get in return is more than a fair trade.

 

Can you even use Heroism, Invulnerability, et cetera as a WS? I'm playing one right now and I know I can't use any strength potions -- only healing. But you're right, UAI isn't even the real boon. Ring of Gaxx for Improved Haste is nice to combine with Assassination but not necessary. The real power comes from traps, in my opinion. While the cumulative spell failure handles any single enemy (even non-wizards, for the most part), traps or scrolls handle fodder. Heck, you barely even need a party (and indeed, if I were running a few less difficulty-enhancing mods, I wouldn't have one).

 

I always thought the real power of a Wizard Slayer > Thief came in when adding UAI and using Carsomyr. I don't think you'll ever be affected by a spell again!