POLL: Moses: miracle worker or wizard?

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The latter.

Thought I was explaining that very point, but I'll shut up now.

(Those pesky rants are easy to go off on.)

 

Greenlion, I'll try to explain where I was coming from -- sorry if I go off topic, but I am responding to a question posed in this thread.

"The Dark Arts", as I used the term, would mean that Moses obtained his powers from someone or something Dark (like the Devil, or a demon, or whatever). What Moses did, he did with God's power (God = not Dark) and because God called him to do so. The results were similar (Moses and the Pharoah's magicians) but the "power source", as it were, was different. I was trying to say that Moses was not a follower of an evil path (at least according to the Bible, and what I believe. Those who believe that God is evil, go to the thread about it and post there.)

Does that answer your question, Greenlion?

 

Oh thats weird, I thought Satan was the bringer of light

 

According to my interpretation of the Bible, people are either disciples of Christ or anti-christ.

I know "good" Wiccans who use their craft to benefit those around them. They, however, deny the diety and resurrection of Christ. So even if they are healing and driving out demons, they still get their power from Satan.

There are stories like this in the book of Acts.
Simon the Magi gave up his arcane magical powers, burned his books and coverted to Christianity. (Then he tried to bribe Peter and John for their divine empowerment, but that's another story )

The sons of Sceva were driving out demons "In the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches..." until one of the demons turned on them and said, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you!?!" and gave them such a beating that they fled from the house naked. (Great stuff in the Bible!)

BTW Greenlion420 .... this is one of the best topics in the Alley lately!

[ April 17, 2003, 16:08: Message edited by: Mathetais ]

 

As in with us, or against us?

 

Yes, but Jesus said it before the defense department did

From Matthew 12

 

Wow, I could almost start to worship Satan just because all the nifty powers he would grant me. You guys make brilliant advertising!

What about all other holy men throughout *mythology*? Were they too working for God or Satan or are they just stories? If so what then makes Herkules into a mytholical figure out of faeritales and Moses into gods man on planet earth?

 

joacqin ... worshiping Satan may give some "nifty powers" but the retirment benefits are hellish!

 

How do you know? ever been in hell??
Maybe it´s even more rewarding than heaven

All that with or against us stuff made me think of a pennywise video, which I´m not gonna quote here since I am in dire need of tact

 

Well, Joaquin, the simple answer to that is that one set of stories actually happened, and the other didn't! However, as has been stated so many times before, that boils down to faith and belief, which is, I guess what this whole thread was about -- do you believe Moses was:

a) A messenger or prophet of God
b) a charlatan
c) A mythical person
d) A real person who was evil but claimed to be a prophet of God.

All of these responses rely on a certain degree of faith, as since no one was there who is posting now, we cannot report from a firsthand perspective.

 

thank you Mathetais, and this topic was posted just for you, but i thought i'd get everyone's views as well.


also this topic was not actually inspired by the accounts of Moses as written in the Bible, but rather the "6th and 7th Books of Moses".

Mathetais.... have you heard of or read the aforementioned text?

 

Through Moses, God performed miracles. Through pharoah's sorcerers, Satan performed feats as well. That's how it is presented in the Bible, and that's how I feel. I also believe all one has to do is ask for wisdom and discernment from God when it comes to understanding the Bible despite translation to grasp the intended meaning. With a clear mind and good intentions, all you need to do is ask God and insight will be provided. And that can override any "discrepancy" or "fudging" in translation and at the same time allow you to believe without "following blindly".

Also, this was mentioned:

"How do you know? ever been in hell??
Maybe it´s even more rewarding than heaven."

For one, God promises it won't be pretty. I take His Word for it. Secondly, Satan has limited reign on this earth. In Hell Satan has full reign (except when Jesus steps in, as He did by dying on the cross, descending into Hell, and then ascending into Heaven). If you think life is bad and can be harsh, just get a load of Hell. Here on earth Satan is limited to what he can do to you because of God's overriding authority and protection (whether you believe in Him or not.) But once this grace period comes to an end and you still don't follow God, then you have only one other entity to follow, and that's Satan. And then you're in his hands. And knowing that he iniated and is in part responsible for the decay and destruction of mankind, means that eternity with him won't be pretty at all.

 

And do you follow God or Satan?

You prob answer God, but how do you know?
Satan hides from us through our ignorance, who can ever suspect God to be evil, aren´t we ignorant on that part?

 

Never heard of them. Got a link, I'd love to read up on them.

 

Mathetais... i don't know if they're posted anywhere online, but i'll look. I purchased the book from a company called "Hamilton Supply" and i'm not sure if they have a site or not, once again, i'll look.

in regards to the text, supposedly these two "books" were originally intended to be included in the Bible but were left on the editing room floor. by who or why i'm not sure.
However this text deals directly with wizardry and Demonology and even (though not very detailed) instruct the reader in the art of summoning demons.

Still interested? or is this another hornet's nest

 

"in regards to the text, supposedly these two "books" were originally intended to be included in the Bible but were left on the editing room floor."

More proof that not just anything is allowed to make it's way into the Bible. I believe the Bible is accurate.

 

Depends on the intentions and goals of the person or group that is deciding what's in and what's out.

 

And with the old Roman Church and the Jewish priests as editors, the bible gets more inacurrate than people claim...

 

It is absolutely certain that the Bible and generally every script that was written in the early cristian times (during or near the time Jesus lived) was submitted to censorship by the Churches (all of them). They all tried to present things in a way more suited to their beliefs.
But some incidents could not be changed i.e. the Old Testament has not so many recent changes due to the fact that is indeed the written history of the Jewish nation. The Churches didn't change something that would not affect their beliefs in any way since it is reffering to the time before Jesus was born

 

BTW, the gospels were written years after Jesus died. His followers believed the second coming was soon. When it became apparent that it wasn't they started putting it in writing. This is one reason that I don't take everything in the Bible literally.

Also would it matter to you that the gospel of John, for example, was written by at least five different people?