POLL: Premarital Sex

Remove all ads!

You completely ignored (or perhaps didn't read) the comment I made regarding the different interpretation that the theologian provided on the other page, did you? As a hint, it suggested that this is more of an interpretation than a direct translation.

OK, I see your point entirely now. I really hadn't been looking at it from that perspective. I realize now, after the fact, that I could have phrased the question differently to get more to the point of what I was asking. Basically my point was it is OK to start having sex even if you don't want children. That's why I listed some of the other measures you could take to eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) the risk of an unplanned pregnancy.

 

Personally, I'm fairly terrified of the potential consequences of having sex, and I'm not prepared to do it until I'm in a situation where I would be capable of supporting a kid. Paranoia saves the day!
Oh yeah, and the concept of abortion sickens me, most of all the procedure itself. Thanks a lot, Something Awful.
I think it's a bit defeatist to just go "Well, our sex drive controls our very existence, nothing we can do about it, oh well". If procreation was the only purpose in our lives, we probably wouldn't have bothered to crawl out of the primordial ooze.

 

The most common social/psychological belief is that moving in together before marriage creates a pseudo-marriage environment in which it is easy to leave if things get too tough. It then sets up a situation where in marriage if feels as if you can deal with trouble the same way you could with a live in partner.

An environment where problems can simply be run away from rather then creating an environment where it is beneficial to work through such problems.

Now I have no problems with divorce, I don't feel marriage to be a union between two people and God and I'm sure I'll have more then a handful of divorces in my life (filed by her of course, because what causes her to file the divorce will be what I'm actually looking for in a relationship), people however who try to escape problems rather then deal with them bother me greatly. If you'd rather move on then deal with a problem, maybe you should just stop being so selfish and stay away from relationships, leave relationships for those who actually want a "two way street".

 

Erm...guys...don't mind me, but i think you should go for every piece of ass that presents itself. If you don't, you're gonna hate yourself later when you're old and wrinkled and not able to score anymore.

A wise man told me this once.

 

Thank God, somebody echoing me .

 

I'm not even echoing you mate, it's my own personal little view on life. Really, life is too short to ponder on things like if it's ethical or not, just grab that piece of meat and have fun. If you don't, someone else will do it in your place, and that makes you a sucker.

 

This is slightly off topic, but I had to add it in:
Abomination, if you're actually pulling out before you ejaculate, stop. Doing that runs a greater risk of getting your girlfriend pregnant, because it makes it more likely that the condemn will break as you try to pull it out.

 

What i don't understand is why anyone would pull out while wearing a condom in the first place, what could possibly go wrong ?

 

Condoms, when used correctly, have a 3% chance of failure. Abomination said he was pulling out to be extra careful, IMO that means he wanted to make sure that if any semen broke the barrier it would not be inside his girlfriend when doing so. But, as I said above, pulling out actually increases the chance of semen espcaping because it increases the chance of condom breakage, and if the condom breaks while one's pulling out, semen will probably get inside the woman.

 

A condom will only break if there is not enough lubrication... I don't often have a problem with that but I do use KY Jelly just in case.

 

I'm fairly surprised at the statistic that states you have a better chance of getting a divorce if you live together prior to marriage. I agree with Harbourboy that it's probably something besides the absense of pre-marital sex that causes this. I think that should be self-evident - just because you didn't move in together doesn't mean that you didn't engage in pre-marital sex. Heck, the only woman I've ever lived with is my wife, but she isn't the only person I've had sex with. Since there's no way to glean from the statistics what percentage of people who didn't live together before getting married had pre-marital sex, there's no way to jump to that conclusion.

Now if we assume that the statistic cited is true - and keep in mind I see no evidence of this myself in society - then there has to be a reason beyond pre-marital sex. And I honestly don't know what that reason is. I don't buy the arguement that living together without marriage creates an environment where you can run away from problems. If that were true, then people who lived together prior to marriage and had problems would never actually get married. And if it is actually marriage that causes people to try to work through problems to their fullest extent, then all couples should be the same once they get married whether they lived together before that or not.

I have a woefully small sample size of people to compare. In addition to myself, my four closest friends and one of my brothers have all got married over the past few years. We've all been married between 2-6 years at this point. In fact, over a five year period, at least one of us got married every year (one year there were two). Three out of my four friends, as well as my brother and myself all lived with their wife-to-be prior to getting married. At this point all of us are still married. However, one of my friends is having some marital problems now - and he's the one that DIDN'T move in with his wife before getting married. Again, however, I have to echo Harbourboy's comments - I seriously doubt it was the fact that they didn't live together prior to getting married that caused these problems now. In fact, I know it's not the reason. My friend is an ass - that's why they're having problems.

The point is that if the statistics are true, there has to be something else these groups share in common as to why the rates are different. Harbouroby's suggestion of conservative+religous = marriage more sacred does make some sense, but I don't think anyone goes into the marriage with the inention of getting divorced at some future point, so I'm not sure that's the whole story either.

 

Greater words have never been spoken!

It also kills the fun on your part...if you're doing things correct, your wife/girlfriend should be having at least 4 orgasms by the time you're ready for your one and only (unless you're one of those *really* lucky guys ).

You know, using a condom and only a condom isn't a very smart approach in the 1st place. If the man is going to use some god-awful uncomfortable form of protection, I (and my fiancé) feel that it's only fair that the woman take precautions as well...offhand I know of 7 different forms of birth control for women...

And to address CtR's statement from the previous page, the same logic goes towards vegetarians too: "If god didn't want us to eat meat, why did he make it taste so good"!

 

That's probably not the greatest argument to use... murdering another human provides a tremendous andrenaline rush.

Now I'm not saying anything about the moral implications of sex, but the argument "It is good because it feels good" is not itself a good argument. There are plenty of acts, that outside of a mind of a moral relativist, moral irrationalist or moral nihilist, are horribly unethical that feel very, very good.

 

Thank you Ilmatar's Suffering.

 

Frankly, I'm appauled at the number of people (ok, men) on this board that want to have sex as much as possible, as often as possibe, and (probably) with as many people as possibe. Ilmatar's Suffering and DeepFae are right, just because something feels good at the time, or seems like a good idea at the time, doesn't mean it really is, and with all the STDs out there, I'd really expect you guys to be more careful, same goes for the girls you're sleeping with.
Sexual drive is not an uncontrollable drive, though it is addictive (seriously, people, it is). This means that the more you do it, the harder it will be to stop if you try, or are forced to. My old age, assuming my wife has died by that point, because otherwise it isn't an issue, will not be one in which I'm chasing every piece of ass that passes by. I can control myself and know that there are more important things in life.
As for the living together statistic, I meant it to be exactly what it was, and nothing more. Statistically speaking, people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce. Blame whatever cause you want, I just know its true. There is some validity to both sides of the arguement. I'm a Christian and so is my gf. This is the prime (but not only) reason we're waiting for marriage. It is also the prime (but not only) reason that divorce is not even an option for us. It's not even in our vocabulary as a thing to concider.

A little aside, I'm also appauled at the way divorce is treated today, as if its no big deal. Not only do the courts cost MASSIVE amounts of money, and the children suffer significantly from a broken home, but on average, the two parents' incomes, as individuals, total to about 65%-70% of what they were earning total as a married unit, and their costs of living, total, almost double. Divorce is a terrible thing for anyone, in more ways than one. The ones that get off the best are those without children, but they still suffer a significant income loss and increased total costs.

 

At the risk of turning this X-rated, is anyone besides me aware that there are other ways a man and a woman can help each other achieve orgasm than just vaginal intercourse? These other methods pose little or no risk of pregnancy, making all this "accept the responsibility" stuff moot. Should I even mention things like 2/3's of all women can not achieve orgasm through vaginal intercourse? So you'd think they'd be more than happy to explore those other methods alluded to above. Paging Dr. Ruth...

 

the other methods you mention, Sir Fink, also have the potential to transmit STDs and thus should not be engaged in without the proper protection.

Pre-marital sex, despite the imperssion some people give, does not equal promscuity.

@NOG: Imo, one of the reasons as to why divorce rates are getting high is because people have different opinions of what precisely marriage entails. To a lot of people, it is nothing more than a legal contract combining their financial assets, after all. Also, a lot of people are what I cvall serial monogamists - people who get married and divorce repeatedly, and thus artifically hike the rates up.

 

I'm not sure I would call that an artificial rise. These are people that genuinely get married and, for whatever reason, are dissatisfied and decide to divorce. Its not like they plan to marry and divorce as many people as possible.

 

Oy with the STDs and pregnancy.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend we live in a magical world where STDs and pregnancy do not exist. Now what's wrong with promiscuity? What's the harm in premarital sex? What's so bad about going out, getting drunk and shagging some slapper?

Seriously, all you've got is something Abraham wrote down 6,000 years ago to back up your argument. And we're talking about a guy who shagged the housekeeper because, uh, God told him it was okay to do so. Riiiiiight. Try that one on your wife and see if she buys it.

 

@Fabius Maximus:

I don't feel like a slave of my urges, really. I don't drool when I see a nice body or immediately think of sex when there's been some alcohol and relaxed atmosphere, nor do I, when I see a girl who seems to be my type, have to bed her before someone else does. I don't lash out on people unless they've done something really bad and I don't have to go spend my money the moment a new thingy hits the shelves and I don't have to go in when I pass a bar. When a porn ad pops up, I don't have to follow on it. When someone wants to play cards for money, I'm not compelled to agree. It's called basic willpower.

If interest is lost so easily, what good comes out of having sex? As in having sex before the relationship ends and the opportunity goes by the wind? Any given two humans of the right gender who aren't immediately repulsive to each other can enjoy sex, sort of. But it takes more to build a relationship. Although there's always the trouble of long engagements and things eventually burning down before they really start (go on the big waters).

@Aldeth:

It's a bit hard to grasp. What you describe sounds like an open relationship, which probably still falls under polyamory, but what Ara meant is probably having a number of partners and no sex with outsiders.

I don't want to theorise too much, but yeah, I would be pretty absolute about any form of swinging. Not even actually sex but also the good old spin the bottle party game. Same goes for cheating and casual sex. The rest is ad casu, but it's always easier with someone who shares your views on things. By regretting I don't mean killing oneself over it but a negative evaluation of the act (dear... I sound like a lawyer gone moral philosopher...), not believing it was OK, good, fun. By this I don't mean pretending it didn't feel good, I mean realising it wasn't a good thing to do and the attitude that the person wouldn't have done it from present point of view. The situation you mention is trickier and it wouldn't really be my business in the first place. I'm a fan of safeguarding but I don't like playing judge on people.

Some Protestant denominations argue that fornication in the Bible is prostitution, not sex with a non-spouse, but the message is pretty clear that sex is meant as a part of marriage, anyway. Prostitution wouldn't be so bad as it was if sex with a non-spouse weren't a problem. There are some texts which say premarital sex is wrong and punishable. Fornicators are a separate category from adulturers. Even if the most emphasis is on fidelity. There is more to it than just the implication from cheating being banned. Note also the part about rapists marrying their victims and escaping punishment. It wasn't just asking forgiveness for the use of force.

People either cheated or married and then had sex and then there was prostituion. It's clear from Genesis up to Epistles that marriage is the intended model.

There are no such controversies in translation except some Protestants saying it's prostitution, not premarital sex, which is banned. But one can't really explain Paul away when he tells people to get a wife for fornications, which obviously precludes the prostituion translation.

As for modern times, you could argue about divorce and difficult situations, as well. Besides, note that people in the Bible married and had children. There was no having sex just for fun or I don't know... just because of feelings, without a formal relationship. Nowadays people have sex because they like it, use contraception to prevent the natural result of it (which is banned in the Bible, even for married couples), kill the resulting baby if contraception fails or isn't used.

@The mad haggis:

People are hurt in relationship disasters and the "volenti non fit iniuria" (no harm is done to the willing) obviously doesn't work in morality as it does in law, nor does it invalidate the bad results. People are often wrecks when they finally find their ultimate partner and marry nowadays. Treating someone like an object, wanting sex from that person but not wanting commitment, does harm.

@T2Bruno:

It's awful how men leave women with children or offer to pay for abortion but not to bring up the child with her or at least pay child support. Some guys are such hypocrites. Like first convincing a woman to drop her barriers, then calling her a whore and leaving to her fate, pregnant or not, moving on to the next lump of meat.

@Ilmater's Suffering:

It's probably the same everywhere... Wonder, however, how much it depends on real figures and how much on people admitting or not admitting things...

I don't think that's bad, actually. It's not knowledge what motivates the college-university-vocational/postgraduate/internship scheme, it's all about making career and money and filling corporate coffers. In past centuries, people took degrees when they wanted an academic career, which generally meant being celibate (AFAIK Oxford profs had to be celibate until after WW2) and otherwise they married young and they learnt all the time as they were doing their job, moving up the professional ranks.

Agreed. The consumer culture has an interest in leading people to believe "everyone is doing it". Sex is casual, sex is a natural need... Blaah, condoms, pills, toys, porn etc sell well, brothels prosper and sex-reeking ads increase demand like they are supposed to, as do sex scenes in films.

@Aldeth again:

Perhaps people assume that if a baby pops up, it's time to settle down and marry.

@NOG:

Yeah, and many people see sex like food or drink or air. Actually, it may be true for those people, but it isn't how things normally are.

Besides, I think sex often fills the gaps for people who don't have a life, don't have interests or hobbies or a meaningful job. A universal time filler, boredom killer and mood lifter.

@Barmy:

People tell themselves they can't control it so that they have an excuse for not trying. Whoever has enough willpower to stick to a diet should be able to deal with sexual temptations. The key is not playing with fire, knowing your limits, not telling yourself you can't control it, so you shouldn't even bother trying. It's obviously going to be hard if you want to go half the way, like have non-vaginal sex or foreplay without sex following or some such. Or if you watch porn, play sex games etc but don't do the real thing. But it isn't really that hard if you give up on the replacers or the borders which only tease your appetite. When you stop trying to push the limits and cheat the system (which is the case with most people who stay virgins, I think, unless it's for lack of opportunities), it's quite normal. It's the omnipresence and huge focus on sex in our culture, which makes it seem difficult, as well as all the tiny concessions people make, pushing the limits a notch each time. It's never too late to change that and it's always possible, no matter what one has done so far.

@Rally:

I wouldn't have said it better myself.

@Ilmater's Suffering:

Agreed. Again, couldn't say it better myself. I don't agree on divorce, but that's a different subject.

@Aldeth yet again:

Let me show you:

People who don't move in together may or may not have sex.
People who move in together most likely have sex.

Therefore, for people who move in, the chance of having premarital sex is much higher.

Therefore, if the divorce rate is higher and the chance of having had premarital sex is also higher, there might be a correlation between the two. Perhaps even causation.

@NOG:

People are culturally conditioned to think like that. It takes some time and effort to break. It starts with being a loser in secondary school because you're single.