POLL: Who's worse: Shadow Thieves or Bodhi's vampires? *extreme plot spoilers*

Remove all ads!

Actually Bodhi's whole spiel is another classic villan move. She spills everything that she feels is of no real consequence for you to know because she's going to kill you anyway.

Also. She's not into stealing your soul. She's into letting your brother do it.

Scary as it is. Standing there and letting a force of good get their soul sucked out falls under neutral. Not Evil. Most of her acts are evil but It's not her stealing your Soul. It's not even her that has Stolen Imoen's soul though she was the recipient of it.

It is her that screws with you under Spellhold but that encounter seems mostly written to bring the whole slayer thing to light in the core game. I understand that unfinished business changes that feel and that Bodhi does indeed chase down the party on you. Which does give her a lot more malice in that encounter.

There have been arguments that the Shadow Thieves aren't really evil. They were in the previous thread and they are in this one. Prine made some of the biggest ones for that.

As for Sime going along. That could be just a ploy. Hell it sure seems like one. She vanishes conveniently before the Vampires ambush you. Ooo. how many times have Villans pulled that one in everything?

The Shadow Thieves Business Is Murder and dirty deals. So it's hard to say they are businessmen before murderer's when both equal the same thing.

Saemon doesn't get paid by Aran Linvail to actually get you out if you take that route. Saemon talks about being betrayed himself and that he needs you to get out of Brynnlaw as well. Alliance by mutual need with a guy that hasn't proven himself outrightly evil though a bit underhanded.

Sime's good but you've taken out a group that the Shadow Thieves couldn't take on. You really think that Sime would want to take that on or Aran Linvail would risk it? Her orders were probably always to teleport the heck out of there at the first sign of trouble. Not to mention. This takes all blame away from the Shadow Thieves should actually happen to you. Which do you think is more important to them? Keeping you Alive on the voyage or making sure they aren't tied to your death?

Early on you don't know Bodhi's plans for your character. The Vampires don't make many major moves against you unless you pick a side. Otherwise you get caught up in the whole mess for implication without doing anything.

Breaking a Monopoly doesn't mean that Bodhi wants all of the pie. That just means she wants her piece of the cut which even Yoshimo would agree that the Shadow thieves have a bit too much of a strangle hold on illicit activities in the city. It's how he crossed them in the first place. To go from "I intend to stop the one group strangle hold in this city" to "I want to totally illiminate the controlling group and run everything" Is probably the biggest leap of Assumption in this entire thread.

As for them thinking you will beat Irenicus. There really is no indication of that. There is little to indicate they care about Irenicus past getting him out of the City. Which happens in Chapter 1. Other than that the only time his name comes up seems to be as bait to manipulate your party. they never express an interest to see him done in.

As for the promise they break. They promise to get Imoen out for you for the price. They don't promise to send you in for her. It's not until you pay your fee that they turn around and go "well we can't get her out. You have to go in and get her." So they aren't helping you do what your fool hardy enough to do in the first place. They don't even give you a choice.

Bodhi doesn't present herself as being able to get in there and get her for you. She says she can only help you get there. Then you either agree to her or you don't and give her the money instead.

yes. I'm aware that Bodhi is a Damned Evil horrible Bleeping piece of work in league with Irenicus as the game plays out. I know she's horribly sadistic. But she doesn't appear that way early on. She treats you better early on even if she does betray you. I haven't argued this.

What I've argued is the only reason Bodhi is worse is because often the argument is that She's Unnatural or Unholy and that's all there is to it. Both Sides are horribly evil. it's been said again and again. Yes I acknowledge this. But People are giving the Shadow Thieves Excuses that aren't there which seem based little on the game and more on personal moral conscience to make the railroaded choice seem right.

A Good Character in my mind when I weigh things seems to have more reason to trust Bodhi from a role playing standpoint even though she's a honey tongued villan with plots to see you undone. Even after you side with Bodhi. She let's you bypass the truely evil crime and do something that is at least less evil and seems righteous in nature. Even if this is a short sighted view of things. The Thieves don't allow you that. Giving all the outs to the thieves because they are mortal and not all thieves are like them is as one sided as you accuse me of being even though If you play the game and read the script you will find exactly what I am saying.

Many of us have played the game so many times how many of us have all the best choices memorized and just run through them without really reading the text anymore? How many know so much about what you get for what in the game that you don't even try to fully explore a map anymore?

The Devil is honey tongued but the problem with making deals with the devil is he makes it ultimately your choice. He presents you with what's their. you have to be with it enough to realize that it comes with a price. This is the same with Bodhi. She's honey tongued. She presents you with what's going on. She even says she's got reasons to see you hurt her brother if you pick the right options when it comes to joining her though she doesn't go into them. But it's up to you to accept the price.

Plain and simple when it comes to presentation early on in the game. Bodhi looks better. Really adds the better twist to the Story. Carries the bigger price for siding with her.

But siding with the thieves the deal keeps changing. There are all kinds of clues in the game that they pay all too much close attention to you through out it and they have no qualms about seeing harm done to you. Just about how they appear when it plays out and what serves them in the end.

Yet the Game is written that if they didn't railroad you they could have given you many other ways to brynnlaw. The Cowled Wizards. The Order. They could have even done something with the slavers and given them a damned purpose other than a couple of rather unlinked encounters in Athlatka for you to run across and spoil the plans of. Imagine getting Lethinan to sell you to Brynnlaw if you sided with him in the Copper Corronet. They have everything in the system to allow you to do such a thing.


But in the end.

If I have to base things only on what is in chapter 1 and 2 on Siding with the Thieves or Bodhi. Bodhi appears the better choice and the lesser of two evils. Sure she's evil but she just seems underhanded and interested in getting her piece of the pie. Self Serving as that is. The Thieves come off worse But there is so much more tieing them in as well that helps create that combined with the fact that the game hasn't unveiled enough to build up that true sense of loathing for the Blood Sucking Wench that is Bodhi.

Long Run of the Game. considering the whole thing. Oh Heck Yes. Bodhi is a lot worse evil. This is obvious. But a lot of this is because Bodhi plays a much more staring role in the later chapters. Like Chapters 3 through 6 in some manner. Not to mention her ties with Irenicus just make her all the more vile and all the more reason for all of us players to feel some sense of loathing and dislike for her which clearly colors a number of these posts. Part of this is also because the thieves don't have much of a part to play after chapter 2. Even if they side with you to take out the Vampire Lair the final time.

Realistically. I'm sorry but neither one fairs better than the other. Self Serving Thieves versuses self serving vampires and they are both horribly evil that do horribly evil things purely for their own gain.

One Final Note and then I think I am just going to shut up I think.

While Chromatic Dragons may be evil. Not all Dragons are. I happened to say black. I used them more because everybody knows what a black dragon is and that it's evil. I also used it and it works with Chromatics as well with a very easy premise. While Chromstic dragons are Evil Not all Dragons are in the same way that Shadow Thieves are evil even though not every dragon is.

To add onto this my point was that to pick between an evil thing and an evil thing is still picking an evil thing no matter which way you hash it. To pick out an evil thing without knowing the details neither one is going to look less good. One may or may not look less Evil or by some fluke even good but thta doesn't make it any less evil at all.

But then this post is really about which one appears Better at the early stages of the game isn't it?

[ February 16, 2006, 07:06: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

Okay, now you're just delving into the realms of .

I sincerely doubt that she had *nothing* to do with stealing Imoen's soul. Hell, if Bodhi didn't want a soul, they wouldn't need you at all! Irenicus could just take Imoen's soul, and they could be out of there and plotting the downfall of Suldanesselar before you even get started. Bodhi is more than just a bystander in this.

I see. So the Shadow Thieves' non-intentions are valid but Bodhi's actual plans aren't? Can we say hypocrite?

He kidnapped and killed many of their number! At the very least they're going to be fearing for their own lives if he tries to do it again. They have every reason to at least find out WTF he was up to, if not to take him down permanently to make sure he doesn't do it again.

*Buzz* Wrong. They never say that they are going to get her out for you, they only say that they will help you get her out. Though you would expect more help than a single thief who doesn't end up doing squat, they have not broken their word.

Ditto. But yours makes considerably less sense unless you're as naive as HB.

Again, you're confusing good with naive. I, for one, have never liked playing Lawful Stupid.

They also don't even ask you to do anything truly evil in the first place! How is having a choice between neutral and evil better than having no choice to do something neutral?

I always read the text, and I always explore every map fully. Memorizing responses would require me to care a lot about the game, and frankly, I'd rather play BG1 (now those I have memorized ). And I want every random encounter, but I don't even memorize the spots in BG1, much less BG2.

You keep flipping back and forth between long run and short run as it suits you, but somehow always with faulty points. In the short run, it doesn't matter what they do after, because you're stuck. In the long run, the Shadow Thieves' deal changes no more than Bodhi's; three tasks apiece. Unless, of course, I missed the part where Bodhi says, "I have three tasks for you."

I could point out something wrong with just about every part of your post, but this is all the major stuff. Besides, I'm tired and I have a very early appointment tomorrow.

[ February 16, 2006, 07:56: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

I hope you don't actually believe this.

Who do you think supplied the warm bodies for Jon's extract-the-soul rituals? Come on.

I am reading this, you know. If you're going to accuse me of saying things I didn't, can you at least provide a falsified quote or something? In the previous thread and early on in this one I was arguing your point for you, that it's conceivably possible (however improbable) for the protagonist to not realise that Bodhi is an evil vampire and, therefore, to side with her out of naivete. But it's still woefully obvious from the player's perspective.

No she doesn't. She stands there watching you kill the vampires, then initiates dialog with you afterwards, then gives you a couple leads on how to get into Spellhold. Either she's cowardly, stupid, or poorly scripted, I can't decide which. But during the time you spend with her she makes precisely zero attempts to in any way thwart or harm the protagonist, so I don't see how it's logical to assume she came along with malign intent.

You mean other than going from "the shadow thieves send an agent to get you safely into Brynnlaw and Spellhold", to "the shadow thieves want you dead as soon as you're done working for them"?

The thieves never promise to get Imoen out. Gaelan says that they can do more than tell you where Imoen is, they can also help you rescue her. They don't say they're going to storm the asylum for you. That's your assumption.

Anyone who knows she's a vampire should not willingly have dealings with her, because vampires are inherently bloodthirsty, subversive and untrustworthy. You'd have to be a fool to associate with a vampire and expect to be rewarded. If your argument had been along the lines of the PC not knowing she's a vampire then I might have been more agreeable, but you're just trying to make the thieves look worse than they do anyway to justify a good character knowingly working for a vampire, which is ludicrous.

Huh? Bodhi spies on you just as much as the thieves do, how do you think Valen knows precisely when to appear with her offer? And where the heck are you getting this "the thieves want to see the protagonist come to harm" stuff? Prior to chapter two they do absolutely nothing to harm you besides making you put together the money for their deal, exactly the same as Bodhi. After chapter two they do nothing to harm you except have you work against their enemy... the same as Bodhi! The only difference is that Bodhi then turns around and tries to KILL YOU in chapter four. And if your PC is bright enough to pick up on the fact that the shadow thieves are spying on you and see you as a means to an end, then why the smeg isn't he smart enough to figure out that Bodhi is a vampire?

Allegedly, yes, but it's very frustrating the way you keep picking and choosing which parts of the late game count for the purpose of the argument. So Bodhi's actions after chapter two don't matter, but a bunch of invisible and assumed chicanery on the part of the thieves in chapters three and four does? And the fact that they then help you again in chapter six doesn't?... Hardly any of what's been said in these long-winded posts matters a stuff if you're arguing from the perspective of a protagonist at the end of chapter two - by that point, you don't know much about the two factions except that the shadow thieves are thieves, and Bodhi's group are vampires. And that was enough for me to make a decision in my first runthrough.

 

Beginning of Chapter 2 In Gaelen Bayle's home as soon as you enter and after his initial little piece about keeping up and finding his home.

PC--

"I kept up just fine. Now tell me what this is all about."

Gaelen Bayle--

"Aye, I'll be doing that as quick as you blink. I'll tell ye straight that I know a powerful group that can be helping ye. They can be findin' the wizard and the young woman both, they can."

"But they can be doin far better than the tellin, my friend. They can also affect the rescue of your lass, or the capture of the mage, to boot."

PC-- Option 1.

"They can rescue Imoen? of Course I'm interested!"


I also specifically stated that Thieves are chapter 2. Chapter 3 starts when you accept the offer either way. The thieves are still very viable at this point. Chapter 4 is Brynnlaw and spellhold. I only ever stated one possible way the thieves could have done wrong here. Otherwise they play no part past chapter 3 unless you get them to help you in chapter 6. I state that bodhi's worse stuff is in later chapters. 3 to 6. Chapter 4 is when she threatens to hunt you through the underparts of Spellhold. Chapter 6 is when you destroy bodhi.

I never gave the thieves mention of being guilty of anything else in later chapters and even stated in later chapters that bodhi is hellishly evil but that is long after the choice of what side to pick. Which is long after she's nice to you, helps you out and tells you she wants to go after her brother.

[ February 16, 2006, 10:35: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

"Affect".

I won't harp over this one too much, though. Not interested in kicking up a big stink over English language and grammar.

 

Considering the three of you (Fel, Prine and starwalker) are just throwing the same arguments back and forth (and giving me a headache ), let me ask you three something.

During the game, there are scenes played out concerning the rival guilds - Shadow Thieves and The Mysterious Guild. Most of these are actual confrontations between the two guilds. When the man (can't remember his name) comes to the party and asks for help because someone is chasing him (or however he phrases it). Another group (presumably the chasers) of 4 people surround you and the guy. The leader of the new party, wearing blue, asks if you're going to help the guy they've been chasing.

I know, this calls for brain wiping coupled with remembering things. Talk about an oxymoron! Forget who's who here. All you know is a guy runs to you and begs for help, then you're surrounded by 4 other people who want to know if you're with the guy or not.

The question is: what would be the 'good' choice for a 'good' PC? IIRC, the responses PC is given are - "We don't want any trouble." "He's yours." or "We'll protect you."

Sorry for my bad memory on this.

 

Sorry for a bit rant, but what the heck do you mean by this? You can easily make an all-good party. There are no fewer than four fighter/ranger/paladins, two clerics, and two mages with thieving skills. So that's eight good NPCs, with a good assortment of classes, and you can pick any five. You can easily make a well rounded good party with these options.

No, I don't believe that at all. If you work FOR Bodhi, you get attacked by the vampires as well. So it is clearly Bodhi that bought off Saemon. Why would we assume that Saemon was bought off by someone else just because Linvail helped you? It's perfectly reasonable to assume that regardless of who you work for, it is Bodhi that buys off Saemon to hand you over to the vampires. In fact, once you reach Spellhold, it is in the best interest of Bodhi and Irenicus that everyone else in the party dies - they are now irrelevant and serve no other purpose. They only need YOU.

There's also no reason to send Sime if he wanted you dead either, as has already been stated. Granted, Sime does woefully little to help you, but if Linvail wanted you dead, wouldn't the perfect time to attack (especially with a backstab) be the exact moment that you attacked by vampires? She has the perfect opportunity to kill you off, and she doesn't take it. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't add up the Linvail wants you to die upon arriving at Spellhold.

 

No you don't. Not until the confrontation with Bodhi in the Asylum.

My "duh" to this whole thing is that I agree with the view that the Shadows Thieves are the lesser evil, although still an evil bunch. Some people (and I'm not just talking about this thread here) seem to put the Shadow Thieves on a Robin Hood pedestal and forget all about the prisons and torture rooms in the Shadow Thief base - Booter and his apprentice, funny stuff, but goes to show what kind of people you're dealing with. Still, they are the lesser of two evils.

 

@Kuemper - yes, a shadow thief called Sansuki runs up to you and pleads for help, then Del the Obvious Vampire appears with her two friends, both named "Vampire". "Pretty pretty cattle, you cannot run." You can help the thief or surrender him to the vampires in two different ways, much as you said.

The obvious 'good' choice is to defend the guy. Judging by Del's dialog, the trio are clearly hunting the guy for either fun or food or both. There's several other encounters with a similar running theme, and one with a weird old bloke who spouts off vampire poetry or something.

Absolutely.

 

The Answer to Keumpers question is to save him for the good answer.

The trickier question is what is right when your a True neutral character.

Lovely rant. Quick reality check. Just Because Bodhi paid Saemon off to have you betrayed. Doesn't mean that the Shadow Thieves don't know about it and let it happen. Aran Linvail doesn't have to pay anybody off to do it if it's going to happen anyway.

If Aran Linvail however is looking to give his guild any actual semblance of having nothing to do with your death? Guard you up until the trap then let it spring on you. Why doesn't she backstab you when they ambush? Kind of hard not to be blamed if your party survives and even further complicated that she'd have to kill the vampires that just beat you for no witnesses or they could turn around and make sure Sime's punished for it and Aran Linvail is blamed. You may or may not have taken on one thieves guild already and you've beat a guild of assassins/vampires.

If Aran wanted to at all have an innocence card then Sime CANNOT play any part in the ambush. Doing that nullifies trying to appear good with a veil of protection. Could well send you after them as well. you've already destroyed one cities criminal organization that had itself rooted into deeper things in the city including central politics. Aran Linvail isn't stupid. That much is obvious. He's also not above bending rules and situations for his protection and benefit.

 

I was unaware that Aran had frequent correspondence with Bodhi. In fact, I thought they were enemies. If he didn't hear it directly from Bodhi, then the only other person who knew this was part of the plan was Irenicus, and I doubt they had correspondence either.

How could they possibly gather this information from Bodhi and Irenicus? It's quite likely that there weren't frequent conversations about this in the vampire crypts. In fact, the only people who likely knew about it were Bodhi and Irenicus.

Which leaves Saemon, who lives by the motto: "One must do what good business dictates." He already is getting paid by both the Shadow Thieves (for taking you to Spellhold) and Bodhi (for turning you over). There's no more money to be made for him, so why would he relate this information to Aran, when it is quite possible that Aran DOESN'T want you dead. He'd be potentially wasting BOTH business agreements he had.

All of this though seems auxillary to the fact that I honestly think that Aran wants Irenicus killed, if possible. I mean, he had thieves storm the dungeon - he obviously wants him dead. And further I think it is reasonable to assume that he wants him dead more than he wants you dead. Who would you go after - the person who has been stealing your thieves for god knows how long, or someone you never saw before they staggered out of Irenicus' dungeon, and has helped you in a myriad of ways? Doesn't add up your way.

 

"Businessmen" = doing what's good for business.

Making an enemy of a powerful Bhaalspawn who may survive your attempts on their life and come after you = extremely bad for business. You either steer clear unless you can't avoid it, or you don't try it at all.

Getting said Bhaalspawn on your side to defend against a predatory opponent = good for business. It's even better for business if they don't leave with a reason to come looking for you again - or may be willing to help you again later if mutual interests exist.

Aran Linvail's no idiot. Neither is the PC, presumably. Bodhi wants you to help her wipe out the Shadow Thieves in Athkatla, but she only approaches you when you're about to get help from the Shadow Thieves - am I the only one who thinks that's suspicious, given the rest of the evidence? Gaelan Bayle's allegiances should be obvious to anyone with half a brain, but he doesn't mention Bodhi or the guild war at all, IIRC; why reveal a weakness and risk turning the PC off helping you?

Okay, maybe she doesn't want the whole pie. In fact, I'm not really sure Bodhi cares much at all, except for getting her hands on a new soul. What Bodhi wants is power, just like she did back in Suldanesselar when she talked Irenicus into attempting the ritual to drain the Tree of Life.

Besides, what's better - the devils you know, or the one you don't? Someone who approaches you after you're the only living thing that emerges from a dungeon where many of their underlings have vanished - who comes to find you straight away, as soon as they have something they think you'll want - or someone who asks you to meet them in a graveyard at night, and who openly asks you to kill and torture for them?

Both will tell you they have been watching you. Aran Linvail will at least tell you the real reason why they want to/need your help. If something's powerful enough to threaten the Shadow Thieves, and is waging a war of assassination and terror to do it, only a fool or a self-serving bastard would not see that things under the new order would likely be much worse for everybody.

No, I'd say that "you get jumped at Brynnlaw, therefore Aran Linvail must have wanted you dead" is a bit higher up on the scale, mate.

As the saying goes - if you're going to take a shot at the king, you'd better make sure you can kill him. It's not as though the Shadow Thieves only have one outpost, and they'd certainly be out for revenge if they could get it.

Bodhi ain't no free marketeer. She wants something that the Shadow Thieves aren't going to share (and which they themselves police, as Yoshimo's dialogue indicates, for a variety of reasons) and isn't worried about reprisals. You don't do that unless you want it for yourself and know you can defend yourself against it.