POLL: Why would you play evil?

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*hugs Shura*

Go Shura!

I don't know why am I even posting this, Shura is saying it all. *appalause*

For me, playing evil is more of an "inside the head" playing than just choosing the evil options. My evil Bhaalspawn may very well elt the little girl she inadvbertedly rescues while ramsacking Place A for Treasure B, and if giving the chit a few coins makes people think she's cool, why not do it?

To refuse to play evil because the in-game benefits are less than for playying good is, well, not so very role-playing-ish. Or words to that effect anyway.

I like to think that there is no good and evil, only strength and weakness. But the definition of what is strength and what is weakness differs greatly. Strength can be found in many forms, be it the strngth of character in the woman Irenicus describes at one point "lotsa kids, parents end husband died, respected snd so forth..." or the might of a Blackguard who is willing to do anything and everything to further his goals...

(Anyone want a good look on "why Palladins are inadverently evil" ahould read THornhold my Elaine Cinningham...)

Or words to that effect. *nods*

I'll leave eloquence to Shura...

 

So you admit Shura that Evil is not all powerful? That it must fall to balance? And through all these new lieutennatns that spring forth to replace their former masters would it be possible that one is all power and no leadership ability? Eventually the cabal that the initial dark lord built falls to nothing but a shell of its former 'glory'.

Much like drow society evil holds no real power, always held back by its own treachery.

 

bu the treachery will increase the speed and intelligence of the people and through that they will become stronger and capable of independance and power.

 

8people refuted your point for me.

Oh boy, I love this smiley.

 

Oh, my... this doesnt belong in this topic anymore

To continue... Drow already are more powerful than most other races. Certainly more than surfacers. Their own competition is a hinderance.

In a way it is a good thing. The most able/fit are on the top. Ruling. Which is a natural selection in a way.
But the thing is that once that the most powerful is on the top he cannot do anything. Constantly and i mean always must he watch out for any upstarters, who would do the same thing he did - take the command.
And this ia a drawback. And a great one.

If whoever that is in command could focus his attention elsewhere than his own subordinates, it would have a point.

Society like that is useless. Sure its powerful. But use is all that power? To take leadership for some time. And then fall like everyone else before you.
The only real point would be to truly have far more power than anyone else under you. Then you could organise and focus on something else than inner struggles for power.
But it is rather hard to do that... as soon as you're stronger than most... they combine their powers only for crashing you down. Then they fall back to tearing each other's backs.
Only then would such a society be a true threat to everyone else, as it has the potential to be.

 

@Abomination
Aye, and likewise a pure good society is ripe for the picking of the nearest evil individual.

Shura is right about one thing - evil is undoubtedly superior when it comes to strength and numbers.
It's just that when you're up too high, there no other place to go but down - and it's a long drop, to be sure. Evil will become too strong, at which point it weakens itself, similar to a society that experiences too much good ends up weakening its defences. This is when the other side gets the upper hand.
In the way of things, the summation of all that is evil and good has to be equal.

 

Sure the treachery will make them stronger, but it doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't leave your own house without the knowledge that your 'next-in-line' will take it over before you return. There is no security, no trust. A commander has to concentrate on keeping his troops in fear of crossing him rather than on any goal he would want to achieve.

A good society is strong because the members can trust one another and they will easily unite to further a cause. Troops of a 'good' army will fight and die for their commander because they are prepared to and have made that choice. If the commander falls a sense of dread will fill the army yet they will still fight on to honor his sacrifice.

To convince an evil army to do something the army must fear its commander more than the enemy. If the commander falls the entire morale of the army is destroyed and they will no longer have any incentive to fight.

 

Bring your army of paladins and I'll bring my band of Pit Fiends, eh Abom? I think my side will have new shiny paladin helmets as chamberpots.

Anyway, this debate is getting silly. I'll never convince you that Evil is stronger and you'll never convince me that 'good' (wimpiness) is better.

In the end, it's the one who wins that's right.

 

@ Shura & Abomination:
Pit fiends and paladins are both going to take serious damage, maybe even to the point of extinction. You will both perish, and what is left standing after that is Neutrality. This is already said, but there can be no evil without good and vice versa. Neutrality makes sure neither one is better than the other.

EDIT: @ Shura:
I too like evil better than those wimpy do-gooders, but still I can see and admit the truth.

 

Ha! Shura fears my army of paladins knowing full well that if he brought denizens of the lower planes to the prime the upper planes would step in and wipe them off the face of Toril like so much crud found behind the refrigerator.

Besides, I never said that good is stronger than evil. I simply said its stronger than evil in certain areas and evil is stronger than good in certain areas.

Back to the celestials coming in and wiping up the demonic hordes... after they have done so the celestials would 'leave'. They wouldn't stay and try to make the world a better place. They might clean up some of the mess those damn deamons made but they will have no more influence.

Balance controlls all. Both good and evil are slaves to the scales of the universe.

 

OK So I'm rather new and all that...

Good is just boring Abo. Goody Whimps=boring. I play CN (always) and I find pally's rants about how rigghteous they are incredibly tiring. Makes me want to reach for my short blade and plunge it into their silly unsuspecting backs. But you know what, I don't. Why not? Coz I don't care! I get by, and leave the ruling of the world to people who think they know better. Of course they don't but I can't be bothered to tell 'em that. I'll just take their gold and their items when they're looking the other way and run. Pretty fast too.

I mean, who're the coolest NPC's in the game? Right, Haer'Dalis, and (not-joinabley) Saemon Havarian. Why, coz they just drift along, oblivious to all this shouting for the right path. (or the Powerful one for that)

Just adding my two cents here

 

Hey, the pit fiends will take care of the pallys, and I'll start manufacturing pillows with the feathers from Celestial wings. Solars and devas and whatnot are wimps before a level 40 Charname.

Or what the heck, a Blackguard beats a paladin of equal level, stats, and corresponding equipment anytime, anyday so maybe I'll just round up a few mortal cohorts and kick shiny plate ass. Then the feathered freaks with halos will have no reason to intervene.

Balance my ass. Power is in the hands of Evil. The Balance itself leans towards Evil. What use is power b/c of the treachery it brings? A question for the naive and self-centered. True Evil is concerned with more than that. It is concerned with the establishment of the strongest on the top, regardless of who it might be. It is Natural Law, which supersedes Balance.

 

Then why hasn't it happened yet Shura? Paladins still are a major force in the realms and no evil lord has been able to convince his followers to directly attack a paladin order.

True balance does 'not' lean towards evil. It leans towards balance. I thought we established that whenever an evil cabal or good order becomes too powerful they crumble under their own weaknesses. And why is the most powerful organisation on Toril a neutral organisation (the Harpers)? Who always seem to be kicking idiot evil's ass left right and centre while good is intelligent and knows not to push its bounds and end up dead. Good old Elminster's still living and kicking arse better than before. The Seven Sisters are still blowing the cr@p out of anything that threatens the balance and even Ao himself(herself?) embodies balance.

Evil has a habit of thinking everyone is weak due to their feelings yet these feelings often become a strength. Evil has never learnt that friendship is what keeps another side together and if evil decided to pay attention to the real advantages of its enemies and undermine them well the world's balance might shift in evil's favour... for awhile.

 

The most powerful characters in the realms are undoubtably on the side of good. However, they fight to keep a balance and to defend their home lands and don't feel the need to conquer other nations.

Evil characters always want to show everyone exactly how powerful they think they are and this is always their undoing. Because sooner or later a champion of good comes along and kicks their butt.

Most great evil leaders are tyrants and lead by the threat of death/pain over their subjects. As soon as someone stronger comes along they willbe overthrown. This means that half the time the evil tyrant is looking over his shoulder rather than expanding his realm.

Good leaders have the support and admiration of their subjects and can concentrate on defending their realm and building their power in order to defeat evil easier.

All this said, it is still far more satisfying to play an evil character. And I always have at least 1 evil character on the go (usually a fighter or a bard).

If only you could have become a vampire in the game, now that would have been cool.

 

Well, Forgotten Realms wouldn't be so popular otherwise, eh?

$$$$$$$$$$$$

And Elminster is Ed Greenwood's alter ego, hence, he is invincible. Have you even looked at the bonuses granted by the Chosen of Mystra template? Even a Commoner 1 with that template could beat the hell out of most archmages. It is hideously unbalanced.

In any fantasy world that does not cater to 'good'-loving audiences, Evil will hold sway. That the majority of people love fluffy bunnies and 'good' simply means that the majority are weak and commonplace. There are far more paladins than Blackguards simply because it is easier to be weak/'good'. Any Blackguard worth his salt can take down two paladins of equal level, btw. They are that awesome.

 

Shura, you remind me of a certain 11 year old who made a site about ninjas...

Replace ninja with Blackguard and we've found another person willing to shove a frizbie down his throat.

So now evil does the poor "well life's unfair, if it was MY way..." thing eh? Pity things aren't done its way. Even fantasy books screw evil over and all it can do is complain? Mayhap evil is far, far weaker than you thought?

 

You would say the same if the position was reversed for 'good'.

Anyway, look at the world today. All leaders of the world are Lawful Evil or at worst Lawful Neutral. (With the exception of Dubya, who is Chaotic Stupid)

Faerun non-withstanding, we've already won!

Heh. I loved that ninja site, btw. It's hilarious.

About Blackguards VS Paladins, take a look at the 3E rules. Blackguards do own Paladins in a straight up 1v1 fight rather easily with similar stats, levels and corresponding equipment.

 

Uhm. Right. Blackguard is a prestige class. What if the paladin has levels in, let's say, Knight of Chalice. Your black ass.. eer.. heart is fried in deep oil

 

Now now you can't compare blackguards with paladins as chev has pointed out, Blackguard is a prestiege class. However compare it to Champion of Torm and methinks we'll have an even matching, let's not forget the good old 'smite evil' attack.