Prostitution

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Sprite, out of curiousity, is prostitution legal in Canada. I thought I had seen a special where it stated prostitution was illegal but the law chooses to look the other way and not enforce the laws. If this is the case, then it is illegal and not enforced meaning there is no registration etc. like I talked about. Maybe this has changed though. The special was about prostitution and focused on some of the border citites in the U.S. and Canada.

 

Well, i know one thing for sure...visiting a prostitute every once in a while is a hell of a lot cheaper than being married.

 

I'll agree with that Pac man. I don't think that marriage is supposed to be about money. It ought to be imho about love and friendship. That is definitely not what prostitution is about that fits more in the lust category.

 

Prostitution as a career choice? That would be difficult in careers assemblys.

I don't think it's right, yes it may be successful for some people, some may actually enjoy their proffession - if it could be called that. But I don't neccessarily agree

 

I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in Holland the "legal" prostitutes pay taxes over their income. So in a way, our government is the pimp here.

 

Laches, as far as I know you are right about the legality issue. While things may be different in whichever province Sprite lives in, prostitution is illegal here in Quebec. Nevertheless, the police tend to look the other way, especially where escort agencies are concerned.

Further, while your first argument gave me pause and much to think about, I feel it a bit of a stretch to imply that legalised prostitution is tantamount to the state sanctioning the view that women are merely sex objects.

I have a friend who is a driver for one of these escort agencies and, much like Sprite has mentioned, a fair number of these girls do it simply as supplemental income. This is not to say this is always the case, to be certain, but nor is it always an act of desperation.

To clarify and expand upon my previous post, I am not suggesting we feel any pity for those who cannot "get any." Never that. I am merely stating that, like it or not, there is a demand for this service. As such, and again like it or not, this demand will inevitably lead to a supply. I see no way around this. Hence, we may as well strive to make the most of a bad situation.

I agree with you that legalising prostitution will not eliminate the black market for it. However, legalisation and regulation would likely provide both a safer and cleaner environment for those who choose to operate "by the book." The fact that it will not entirely correct the problem does not mean the effect will be nil, does not mean no effort should be made.

As for the taxes and medical costs, I guess I am looking at things from a Canadian perspective (I tend to do that, naturally) where they are more or less one and the same. Medical coverage is provided freely (or almost) by the government and the money is recuperated via income taxes.

In terms of being treated like second-class citizens, well, what can I say? First, that is likely already the case, so things will not get any worse. More importantly, and this may be somewhat naive and utopian of me, I am talking about more than mere legalisation, but rather an effort to reshape peoples' opinions about the whole thing. I see no need for this to be frowned upon and legalisation/regulation may - in time - lead more people to feel the same.

I will not go so far as to paint the portrait of the prostitute as an entrepreneur catering to a specific market niche, but I suppose even that argument could be made.

In terms of rape, as I mentioned in my initial post, any thoughts of there being any significant impact are admittedly a stretch. At the same time, if even one rape is prevented as a result, then it was a worthwhile effort.

 

The way prostitution laws are set up in Canada is that having sex for money (in any province BTW Johnny- this section of the Criminal code makes for very interesting reading!) is in and of itself legal if you are of age. However- this is the tricky part- telling someone that you are available to have sex for money is against the law. This is actually quite a sensible approach because if anyone complains their neighbourhood has turned into a red light district, the police can do something about it immediately. The end result is that most prostitutes, not including the unfortunate but inevitable drug-addled ones, work freelance by posting ads in the newspaper. The police usually only intervene in this case if they hear that the prostitute is also selling drugs.

Currently, Winnipeg and some other poorer cities are having real trouble with prostitutes and their clients taking over residential neighbourhoods. This is the reason we are starting to see police crackdowns on adult prostitution again in those areas. It's not common elsewhere though. I lived on the biggest red-light strip in Canada - Jarvis Street, Toronto - for a summer and while I regularly saw my neighbours out making a living in very short skirts, I never once saw a cop.

 

Another factor to consider when it comes to legalizing prostitution: if it is legalized a woman is conducting business. She will be subject to the full force of the laws which apply to businesses, meaning, that if a woman is a prostitute and a man or woman seeks her services she will have to justify refusal or be liable. For example, many nations have gender discrimination laws -- a prostitute may not wish to engage in sex with another woman but the laws may not (and in nations like Greece and Germany this really has happened) allow her to refuse. The same can be said if the woman does not wish to engage in sex with men or a certain race -- civil rights laws could kick in. Maybe she doesn't want to have sex with physically or mentally handicapped men -- laws about discrimination of the handicapped would kick in.

So, are we imagining not only legalizing prostitution but then making special exemptions excusing prostitutes from the civil rights laws that apply to every other business. That is the argument I'm seeing some make I think, that it is a business like any other. Or, are we going to force the prostitutes to comply with those laws and isn't that a government sponsored rape?

Why not just leave it illegal and change the way we enforce it?

 

Laches, you are an incredibly well spoken individual with great insight and rationale: I enjoy your contributions here.

Some topics remind me of hornets nests, or some other pest of life which cannot be easily driven away.

All the legal issues which would arise if prostitution were legal:
I mean can a woman choose or not?
Can a woman choose her partner?
Shall she be forced not to discriminate against the elderly?
Would she be responsible for all the children she might bear? (Why not throw abortion on the pile!)

I don't know why, but I think sex is one of those things women have in their handbags.
Men want it, and women know it.
That's what that damn apple Eve gave Adam is really all about!

Back to topic, the reason I would lean toward legalization is that I believe women would be safer and sex would be healthier for all involved, including the spouses of johns.

 

I don't have much of an opinion on the legal aspects; if I was rewriting the criminal code from scratch murder, aggravated assault and robbery would be the only crimes but I recognise that the government is going to regulate every other detail of our lives so why not prostitution too?

My concern is with the attitude that prostitutes are failed or fallen women. Sometimes they are, and deserve help and pity. Sometimes they aren't. In either case they should be accorded the same respect and protection that the rest of society gets. It makes me so angry that every time a woman who works in the sex trade is murdered, she is referred to by her career only in the media. You never read of a man arrested for "killing a lawyer" but far too often you hear about "killing a prostitute", and they don't even bother mentioning her name or her surviving loved ones. I go to candlelight prayer services when a woman in my city is murdered, and the ones for women who worked as prostitutes are always small, lonely, unremarked affairs compared with, say, one for a female engineering student or even a woman given the death penalty on the other side of the world. It makes me almost as sad as the death- that because she was a "bad girl" her death earns so little outrage. Prostitutes are PEOPLE first. What they do for a living should not be considered the defining factor about their lives.

 

All I'm going to say about the aspects is that it's immoral. If someone wants to do it, we should let them. We have all heard the stories of prostitutes who have been murdered by sick people, or have gotten life threatening diseases. So if they still want to do it, they already know the risks.

 

Well Sprite, the thing is that if prostitution is leaglized it is a business. Business requires laws for the benefit of society. The government must enforce contracts or there would be chaos, so contract law. Now, since we aren't always as open minded as we should be, the government has decided that they need civil rights laws which apply to businesses, and if prostitution is a business.... We have laws to protect the physically and mentally handicapped that apply to businesses and if prostitution is a business....

In short, any anti-discrimination law that applies to business might well apply to prostitution as well. If you argue that these laws shouldn't apply to prostitution I have to ask why? Doesn't arguing that prostitution is a specialized situation and shouldn't be subject to to the full array of laws that every other business is subject to undermine the argument that prostitution should be considered a business?

For the record, I don't find prostitution to be immoral. I simply think that it is something that most (not all) women would probably rather not engage in if they had options elsewhere. I found a study done in Australia and according to it 60% of prostitutes there didn't finish high school and another 14% have no education beyond high school. To me, and maybe this is wrong, this suggests that the majority of women in Australia that are prostitutes are seeking money and don't have many other viable alternatives.

Maybe my experiences are different than others but I have a friend that runs a homeless shelter in Seattle and I've worked there and met a number of prostitutes that would seek refuge there. I've never known a woman who worked for a nicer escort service. From what I've seen of prostitution, it is not so much a freely made choice as it is a choice born of desperation. However, in the interest of fairness here is the site on the Australian study (quite in depth) and it has info that could be used on both sides of the debate:
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/index.html

I'd favor keeping it illegal and changing the manner in which it is enforced to target the Johns while focusing on providing alternatives.

 

Frankly, there are problems with the kind of laws you are talking about that far exceed any problems related to prostitution. In most "free" countries no private individual is forced to work for anyone else, regardless of whether he/she is a freelance writer (as I am), a plumber or a prostitute. Any country that has a law that says otherwise is in such flagrant violation of the principles of human liberty and civil rights, that it should be addressed pronto because it amounts to slavery.

 

The laws don't force anyone to work for anyone else. What they do say is that an employer can't discriminate when hiring on the basis of race, gender etc. They also say that if you have a business that is open to the public you can't discriminate on the basis of sex, race etc. They in no way shape or form say you have to go to work for anyone. In the case of prostitution, if it is a business, they would be conducting business in the public sphere making them subject to anti-discrimination laws like any other business. No one is saying anyone has to work for anyone or be a prostitute.

 

If we are going to treat this as a legitimate business, then it must be governed by the same laws that apply to all other businesses. This includes refusing service to anyone in a discriminatory fashion (ie. based on gender, race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.).

For the private entrepreneur running her (or his, I suppose) own show, this may well create some uncomfortable situations. Make sure you know what you're getting into before diving in with both feet, I guess.

Of course we cannot make exceptions to these rules for one business or another, but there are always arrangements that can be made. Take, for example, a newly legalised brothel. The brothel itself cannot turn away a customer for discriminatory reasons but it may make arrangements internally to circumvent this. Say Prostitute A does not like people of type X. If a person of type X requests the service of Bella's Best Brothel, Inc., the business can easily offer the services of Prostitutes B, C, or D. The morality of this may be suspect, but I believe it would be legal.

 

The most important question is (IMHO): do people want to be a prostitute? I think (can't base it on facts) that most if not all women (and men) in this 'business' don't really (deep in their harts) want to be in it.

Next to this I think it is quite revolting and the most anti-feminist profession there is. Women (because most prostitutes are women) become beef. Pretty flesh and nothing more.

 

So now other people have to choose their future profession??

 

sorry my previous post was a bit off topic. But it is relevant in that the question should not be whether or not prostitution should be allowed officially or not. The issue should be that people are urged to not frequent a prostitute. What I mean is: it doesn't matter what we say about the subject, unless we try to change mankind's view on these matters.

the important thing is that people should realize that it makes sex less great if you do it with lots of different people (be it prostitutes or free one-night stands).

 

I agree with Aergron prostitution is anti feminist for the very reasons he expressed. I get so sick of women as meat.

Pac-man you crack me up: 'sure is cheaper than marriage..' LOL

 

Prostitution may be anti-feministic, but it still is the choise of the individual. Well usually not much of a choice (or actually it still is quite often enough, only people who make those choices are somehow emotionally disturbed or don't see their other options for other reasons), but still. Prostitution as it is, has nothing to do with any sort of feminism. It's simply a matter of human rights.

I know, stating out the obvious here. But no woman should be denied the right to do prostitution on the basis of that it "makes other women look bad". Kinda funny way to put it I know. Still, denial of prostitution because of the protection of the individual is a whole other matter. An acceptable one.