Ranger Thread.

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I disagree Kmonster. The difference isn't that huge. A Ranger level can't be compared with a spellcaster level in the sense that it won't make such a big difference.

Favored enemy? So what you get one level behind for an extra bonus that is entirely situational. Especially since you recommended goblins a few posts before.

Attack bonus? BAB? I'm pretty sure the difference is not noticeable.

You lose only 2 hitpoints (D8 HD vs D10 HD) for one level, or am I missing something?

High Wis is not a problem because this build doesn't need Str.

You may have a point about good armours but when are you going to get one of those? If you're not playing HoF it will be a long way into the game.

Furthermore, the Monk 1/Ranger X not wearing any armour will allow other party members to use the best armours. Moreover this character won't have to worry about his armour limit to the maximum AC bonus from Dex either (and with buffs Dex can get pretty high).

I'm pretty sure that this build can have the best AC in the party for a long time with only a few buffs (at least Cat's Grace and Barkskin). The Armour spell can be cast with a ring.

In certain situations Evasion can mean the difference between life and death (at least in my experience).

In the end it's a question of playing style. If you can picture a Monk Ranger as a contemplative character who has left his community to embrace the call of the wild and become one with nature through a personal quest for inner balance it can play out nicely.

 

About favored enemies: Trolls appear quite often in the first 3 chapters, afterwards they are only cannon fodder. They're mainly annoying because you need fire or acid to kill most of them and don't appear in boss battles.
There are lots of goblins (including sorcerers and shamans) in the first chapter and mixed parties you have to fight late in chapter 5 (the first chapter and the fields of slaughter are considered the hard by many players) have half-goblins in them, they do a lot of damage with their greatswords or halberds. In chapter 6 you'll also meet some goblins.


Adding a monk level is useful if you want the ranger to be a decoy on the front line without caring for the damage output and the extra armor spells you'll have to cast.
But for a background archer armor class, evasion and saving throws aren't nearly as important as damage output.
A pure ranger is better both for testing the ranger class and playing an archer. Adding 4 fighter levels for weapon specialization will improve the ability to deal out damage considerably.



About playing a "true ranger archer": Rangers have animal empathy, wilderness lore and stealth as class skills, get dualwielding and favored enemies and some spellcasting as special abilities.

I recommend human so you get 2 skill points per level even with 3 int. Maximize animal empathy (so you can test it), put the wilderness lore button to the main interface and use this skill to get a nicely written description for every area, spend some skill points into wilderness lore and a few into stealth. If you have a druid or barbarian to handle wilderness lore in the party or don't like this skill you don't have to raise it.

Rangers have str, dex, con and wis as primary stats.
Dualwielding requires using small weapons which deal out only little damage, high strength is needed to even this out. Bows don't benefit from it however.
Dex is he primary stat for using bows, but if you wear studded leather you don't benefit from more than 20 which you can reach with 15 natural dex and a lucky cat's grace spell, so if you have enough arcane casting power in the party more than 18 isn't recommended.
Con is useful, but hit points aren't the most important thing if you're far away from the enemies.
3 int grants the same skill points as 9, so I'd just dump it.
You don't benefit much from wisdom early in the game, if you refuse to dump int and cha you can start with 11 and raise it at level 4,8, and 12 (you'll want to have at least 12 wis at level 4 and 14 at level 15 for the spells).
With 3 charisma you can still get animal empathy high during the game, but early in the game when you meet most animals it will still be low.
For testing a ranger class archer I'd take a human with the following stats(str-dex-con-int-wis-cha): 18-18-18-3-16-3, trade up to 5 points from wis to cha (or even lower str and con, eagle's splendor will also improve this skill during the game) if you want to be good at animal empathy early.
If you don't want a stat lower than 10 try something like 13-18-14-10-11-10.

If you want to mix in 4 fighter levels be aware that you can transfer 1 skill point to the next level up so you don't have to take cross class skills as fighter.

 

I'm going to try the mo(1)/fighter(4)/ranger(x), it isn't a pure ranger but due to the game mechanics it sounds like the only way to actualy make a viable 'true ranger' that weilds a bow.

 

Are you talking about just the normal game or HOF? In HOF there's the Massive Greataxe of Flame? (2d12+5, plus useless fire damage) and Big Black Flying Death.

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Because ranged characters already get *RIDICULOUSLY* high attack, and further points in dexterity are totally useless as you are already hitting pretty much all the time. You might as well put those points somewhere where they will be occasionally useful (STR) as opposed to totally useless and redundant (DEX).

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My criticism of the Monk/Ranger/Fighter build:

1. Even with 18 wis, you only get a +4 bonus to your ac, which can be bested with a decent suit of studded leather armor.

2. STR of 10? What in the world? I don't even give my mages a STR of 10 because you will end up spending half your time dealing with encumbered characters and transferring items from one inventory screen to the other.

3. Taking 3-4 levels of monk just to negate minor experience penalties? You will be delaying the ranger's spellcasting abilities (one of the few bonuses of the class) uselessly just for the sake of +4 bonus to ac that you can get from putting on some studded leather armor? And that too on a character that is supposed to attack with RANGED weapons and thus doesn't even really need the ac anyway?

4. Why minimize the STR stat of a WARRIOR character when you can put points in both STR and DEX and make an character that is awesome in both ranged and melee? In fact, STR should be MAXIMIZED (put all level up points into STR) because the benefits provided by raising dex are superfluous.

5. Why not take two levels of rogue which will give access to more skills, give more skillpoints (specially if your first level is rogue) and *also* give you evasion instead of the monk levels?

7. Another better multiclass idea for a lawful character is Paladin (you will get +1 wis and +1 cha from doing the paladin quest which is awesome as those stats are needed by rangers), plus you get immunity to fear at level 2.

Do people like building gimped characters just for the fun of it?

My suggestion for an archer: Plain Half Orc Fighter(4)/Ranger(X) with maxed out STR specializing in bows and axes. There's even a cool portrait of a Half Orc wielding a bow. Throw in a couple levels of either rogue or paladin if you don't mind the experience penalties. Take the Paladin levels late, upon reaching Kuldahar or so. If rogue than take those levels at the beginning.

 

In that case go for a Fighter 4/Ranger X because the experience penalty will hurt your character. Unless of course you're ready to take up to three levels as a Monk. But that would spread your levels around and you won't play a Ranger anymore but a multiclass hybrid.

Since you want a "true ranger" the Fighter 4/Ranger X is probably better suited. You won't have the Monk bonuses but you'll have a better archer.

I would either pick Monk 1/Ranger X (high AC) or Fighter 4/Ranger X (more damage with bow specialization). Adding other levels will probably dilute the Ranger class too much.

1. You're missing the point. Most light armours will limit your Dex AC bonus to +5 which is not that high when you take into account buffs.

2. No need for more Str for an ARCHER. Especially one who isn't going to be wearing any armour. You may think that Str is the most important stat in the game even for mages but it only needs to be maxed out for characters who wield two handed weapons.

3. The point that Kmonster made about the AC being more useful on a decoy has its merits. However it seems to me that you're making a big deal of Ranger spellcasting especially in normal mode.

4. An ARCHER doesn't need more Str to be perfectly efficient. A sling user with maxed out Str is probably the best damage dealer but if we are to trust Sir Rechet's calculations the archer is not too far behind. By the way your point number 4 is the same as your number 2, I get that you find the idea of a character with only 10 points in Str shocking but I can assure you that it doesn't make a difference for an ARCHER.

5. Rogue is cool. It needs some Int (and of course it's important to start as a Rogue, no point in taking your first level later). The thing is IMO the Rogue class doesn't bring much to the Ranger whereas the Ranger brings more to a Rogue. In other words I think that a Ranger 1/Rogue X is a better character than a Rogue 2/Ranger X. You don't get much besides Evasion (unless if you decide to get some Rogue only feats but that requires more Rogue levels).

6. What happened to number 6? I miss number 6.

7. Why would a Ranger care about Cha? Seriously? To smite evil? The Paladin/Ranger is a weird multiclass. You need Cha for the Paladin and you don't need it at all with the Ranger. Paladin abilities get better with more levels so the idea is generally to take a Paladin level with a Sorcerer (later on) or to play a straight Paladin (or one that multiclasses to a non forbidden class). In the case of the Paladin/Ranger going for a Paladin 1/Ranger X is a really bad idea compared to a Ranger 1/Paladin X.

Immunity to fear can be duplicated with the collar (or by casting a spell).

That is what I call a bad build. Bear in mind that the Half Orc favoured class is BARBARIAN, not fighter so you already have to deal with some XP penalty here.

Besides it's ridiculous to max out Str if you're going to use a bow. It's useless. Your character build could work with axes and throwing axes if you picked another race (dwarf comes to mind) or took Barbarian levels instead (but that means bye bye specialization).

No offense Roshan but the only point I can concede is the point made by Kmonster, i.e. that the Monk mix in works better for a decoy.

That's what makes the Monk mix in good for a very high AC character, no limit to the Dex bonus (and buffs apply). That being said you're probably right that in most circumstances it's certainly a better option for a decoy rather than for a ranged warrior.

 

@Roshan
Noted.

Bleh you guys are confusing the crap out of me. So How will I have higher AC with a mo(1)/ranger(x)? Won't it stay at +4 without armor?

As of right now I have a human 10 str high wis/con/max dex mo(1)/ranger(x) build. It's going to be a pure bow weilder, that's all he will use. Should I proceed with this?

 

Your AC as a Monk is dependent on the Wis modifier and the Dex modifier. If your Wis gets higher (with items it will increase your AC). likewise if you increase your Dex with items or spells (buffs like Cat's Grace for instance) it will also increase your AC.

A Monk who wears an armour can't use his Wis modifier to increase his or her AC. Most armours have a base bonus to AC that vary but armours also limit the bonus you can get from Dex. If you wear a heavy armour it may negate all Dex AC bonus and a medium armour may limit your AC bonus to 3 points whereas a lighter armour may limit it to 5 points max.

For instance if I have a Monk with 18 Dex and 16 Wis, he will have +4 points thanks to Dex and +3 thanks to Wis. If I decide that this character is going to wear a studded leather armour he won't benefit from the Monk Wis bonus but will benefit from the bonus of the armour +3 to AC. The thing is that the studded armour limits my character's Dex bonus to +5. Since my character has 18 Dex and +4 bonus it is not a problem. But if a Sorcerer casts Cat's Grace and my Dex is increased temporarily to 22 I won't get the +6 to AC, I will only get the maximum allowed by the armour which is +5. In that case the Monk will get the maximum of +6 because he is not wearing any armour.

It may look confusing but it'll make sense in game. Just experiment.

In the IWD2 forum we're always arguing like this. Anyway, you're playing Normal Mode so you don't need to powergame. You want a Ranger with a bow and a Monk level to have some extra exotic abilities just go for it and forget about Fighter levels altogether.

Just have fun and enjoy your game!

 

@Caradhas
Thanks, yea he has 18 wis I think. I might use the +5 wis ring later on too. Didn't realise I got more AC from dex, which is maxed on him as well.

 

I actually made a deep gnome ranger 1/monk X. I built this particular character to take the hits since he has really good AC and saves. I maxed his Wis and Dex and pumped Dex every chance I get. At level 1, I take weapon finesse and use short swords and daggers so he has good attacks. Damage may be low, but he still does fairly well offensively because of two weapon fighting. Early, he'll deal decent damage due to more attacks, although his damage output may drop off a bit later.

 

The Massive Greataxe is a random drop. Not only that, but you need rather astronomical luck to ever see it. I haven't yet seen it drop anywhere and I've played through the game at least 20+ times by now.

Yes, there's a HOF upgrade to Flying Death, but you'll only ever get to use it during the very last two chapters in HOF mode.

I guess better comparison would be using the early +1 weakling weapons with 22 STR (Bull's Strength only), without the Gauntlets of Expertise so only +6 damage from spells/talents.

Greatsword +1: 2d6+1 base, 18-28 per hit.
Longbow +1: 1d6+1 base, 8-13 per hit.
Sling +1: 1d4+1 base, 14-17 per hit.

Somewhat similar relative difference, although now the sling is right at the heels of the greatsword. Add Rapid shot and you can't beat a lousy sling until you start swinging the greatsword three times per round..

No, it can't. You're thinking it as trading away your armor bonus to get the wis AC bonus. You don't need to do that - there's this little thing called Mage Armor (and later Spirit Armor), which almost any arcane caster can happily provide for you, and pretty soon on a permanent basis. That spell alone is strictly better than Leather armor +2 since you don't have any max DEX restriction and you keep your armor slot free.

Carad already picked that build apart, but to further re-emphasize his point: Using a bow on a high STR character is ALWAYS a damage loss, no matter how you slice it.

 

There's a bit more to it than that, of course. Bows get triple damage on critical hits, whereas slings only get double. Greatswords also get double, but with an increased critical range. With Improved Critical, luck and other stuff, bows will come out significantly better than they look here. And for important battles, you can use magical quiver with your magical ranged weapon, giving slings and bows another boost.
Also, enemies get a +4 Attack Bonus to hit you in melee if you persist in using a ranged weapon in close combat, not to mention the -8AB you suffer for targeting an enemy that's already on top of you... Ranged weapons can be sustained successfully if part of your group takes them on in melee. But don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone can just use slings, because they come out the best in the pure damage calculation.

 

Actually, you only ever need two characters in IWD2 to be able to use ranged weapons exclusively to their fullest dps potential. Just make sure they're not standing right next to each other and they can target and kill each other's surrounding mobs.

Suffice to say that I surely would have noticed the +4 attack bonus enemies get when trying to hit my ranged attackers in melee, but I have a strong hunch to believe that this hidden attack bonus was never implemented in IWD2. Need to double-check, though. Also, the -8 attack penalty in close combat only applies to targets standing right next to you. Anyone at least a two-handed weapon's reach away is kosher.

 

@Hootpad: I totally forgot to mention items in my post above. What can I say it was late (or early depending on the perspective). Anyway Sir Rechet makes a very good point about the interest not wearing armour, with the right items to boost the AC the Monk will probably get the higher AC in the party (which has Kmonster pointed out earlier is great for a decoy). Besides you'll get to use Monk only items that are useless for other party members (and which will allow you to use the other items for other characters).

 

You're missing the point. STR won't make the character a better archer, but it will make it a better character, period.

Lets look at some of the ranged weapon BAB bonuses available in the game:

Bracers of Archery (+2)
Weapon Focus Bow (+1)
+5 Long or Composite Long bow (+6)
+5 Arrows (+5)
18 Dex (+4)

That's already a damn good +17 to your base attack. As a Ranger(26)/Fighter(4), your attacks will look as follows (I believe...):

46/46/41/36/31

Pretty damn good if you ask me.

A human monk(1)ranger(30) loses 1 BAB due to the monk level but gains 3 from maxing dexterity. So your attacks will look like:

48/48/43/38/33

Now, there are even more sources of attack. Bless or girdle of beatification (+1), chant (+1), prayer (+1), recitation (+2), emotion hope (+2), Rings of the Warrior (+2), Chimandraes Slippers (+2 but +3 to a character with 25 dex). Now, lets forget about attack bonus and look at attack rolls. The game has a few sources of luck that will increase your attack rolls (and damage rolls too):

Luck spell (+1)
Tymoras loop (+3) (if you are really lucky you might even end up with two of these on a normal playthrough)
Neds Nucky (+1) or Neds Lucky Nucky (+2)

Does it make any sense to create a character that is completely gimped in melee, when you can have a character who is maximized for melee at the cost of 2-3 attack?

Sorry, silly mistake - you get +1 wis and +1 str (not cha) from the Paladin quest, which is great for a character trying to max out STR.

I agree, I said myself in my initial post that ranger spellcasting is virtually useless. But if youre playing a ranger anyway, you might as well take advantage of it. Rangers might be able to make some use of early spells like entangle or alicorn lance (both of which make it slightly easier to hit enemies, if that's so important).

Also, note that there is an armor at the end of the game that gives +7 ac but does not cap dexterity (a side note: the HOF version of the armor adds +8 ac, +3 attack, and 1 additional attack per round! (not sure how this will affect the attack bonus for a character with rapid shot turned on, but attacks per round are capped at 5 anyway)). Even if you give the character the Every God Ring (which you will need for your druids or clerics), he will only get +6 ac from the wisdom modifier.

Also the +3 or 4 DEX ac bonus you will get out of maxing dex will have barely any impact in an HOF battle.

Personally I dont mind XP penalties, and if you keep fighter/ranger close in the early game you can avoid penalties until clvl 8. Actually the barbarian favored class is pretty cool early in the game, as you can take a barb level early in the game for faster movement speed at no additional xp cost (movement speed, imo, is much more useful for a ranged attacker than ac, monks get movement speed bonuses as well, but not until lvl 6).

No argument here. Another point that just occurred to me is that evasion grows less useful as luck decreases damage taken from spells. (a character with 5 luck bonus would only take the minimum 10 damage from a fireball, for example).

 

That depends on the rest of your party and what you want to achieve with this character.
If you don't care much about ranger spells and abilities a monk3/fighter4/ranger is superior, if you don't care about monk items and AC bonus pure ranger is superior and if both ranger spells and monk items are unimportant fighter4/ranger or even fighter/paladin/ranger is better.
But if you want to play an archer with good AC who gains access to both monk items and level 4 ranger spells during the game your build is the optimal build.

I agree with Caradhas, you don't have to powergame. Any ranger build should be able to do the ranged support well in a normal game, especially if you use the magic arrows you'll find.

 

I forgot about monk items. Thunder clap should be extremely useful for the character.

 

Sorry Roshan but I think you are missing the point here.

This thread is not about the best powergaming Ranger, but about a Ranger specialized in bows (what Hootpad was asking about).

For a ranged character using exclusively bows Str really doesn't matter at all.

Besides if we mean to powergame all the way (using foreknowledge and tailoring the party according to quest bonuses, loot and random drops) let's be frank from the start that any other class would be better than a fulltime Ranger (and that includes a simple Fighter who will be a better archer no matter what -at least in ToEE Rangers get the opportunity to get some ranger special bow feats).

I like Rangers and they are formidable in IWD1 but in IWD2 they are just like Half Elves. They have some perks but you'll always find a better alternative. Making a Half Elf Ranger is most certainly a powergamer's nightmare but in normal mode it can be done and it can be fun especially for pure RPing purposes.

Regarding XP penalty it's certainly a matter of taste but any build that forces you to suffer XP penalty is not a good build IMO (and I stress the IMO part). There are some exceptions (like the one Stuntman posted although I would personally have used a fulltime Monk instead) but your half orc is not going to be as good as a dwarf because in the long run 2 extra points in Str won't make up for all the XP (besides the half orc will have less points to spread around) and IMO a dwarf with 18 Str and 20 Con is a better option for the same build (only I wouldn't let him near a bow, like Rechet stated earlier it's a waste to have such a character lose so much Str damage).

 

I had a blast with a ranger/rogue. You don't need a full time rogue and the two classes are very complimentary (I divided them evenly). The character started out primarily as an archer, but as I found some smaller weapons that negated armor the ranger/rogue became a great melee character. The sneak attack is quite nice when you get the timing down.

The character would switch between archer and melee depending on the opponent.