Religion and Wars

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Right. Religion can only be an excuse, not the reason.

War is about power, and power is a political issue, not a spiritual one.

 

War is often about power, but not exclusively.

Unless we expand the definition of power so much as to render it meaningless.

 

'War' is not a noun, it is a verb. All individuals whom have warred have had their own reasons for doing what they did.

Edit...

I have noticed that people whom claim spiritual beliefs behave no differently than those whom do not.

[ April 13, 2007, 03:38: Message edited by: Late-Night Thinker ]

 

In another thread, you likened religion to a gun. In many of these cases, religion is a weapon to swell troop numbers. That is the relation between religion and war.

Proteus had it on the nose when he said:

In the case of a war, I have been taught (and believe) that the sins committed by soldiers in the line of duty are on the head of the ones that caused the war. If the war in Iraq is not justified, then all the death and suffering will be on the heads of George W and Saddam Hussein...

 

Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. (Joshua 10:40)

Whether this and many other examples were put in the Bible to sanction massacres 'in the name of God', you cannot deny that the Old Testament is full of entries where the people of Israel were commanded by God to wipe out others. Was this God speaking, or his chosen's own ideas?


In any case, you can also read that the old man also likes doing the job himself from time to time:

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth -- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air -- for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5)

 

While it's great fun to drop the blame on politics about all conflicts involving religious elements the fact is that religion and politics have gone hand in hand for a long time and in many ways still do. This is unfortunate and the final and ultimate separation between church and state is the separation of religion and politics. I think that would make the world a better place for all of us and prevent people from imposing their religious dogma on other people and prevent conflicts sparked by religious motives.

 

Colthrun, the common Christian answer to that is, "Thats the old testament, we dont believe in that anymore."

Then I must ask, why is it in the Bible? Oh I know many will say Jesus was created to soften Gods wrath towards, but why should God have wrath towards, and why should he enjoy killing instead of converting?

I dont see why anyone should fear God - its like being scared of an airplane landing on your head. if it was going to happen, there wouldnt much you could do about it. let god harm me if he wants - he doesnt prove anything other than pettiness.

 

Sorry, but what other reasons are there for going to war?

 

Proteus:

And thus you demonstrate a striking lack of understandinc of the Christian faith yet again.

God judges who and how He wants, and if He commands for a people group to be wiped out, there's a good reason. Usually, it is child sacrifice. Molech (sp?) worship was big in that region.

Morgoroth:

This is impossible without the total removal of one or the other. Politics holds sway over a vast majority of the ways to improve people's lives, especially in some countries. Religion almost always seeks to improve people's lives (though in their own vision). You would either have to remove the restrictions of politics (and all its other activity as well), or remove the religious drive to improve people's lives, and thus a fundamental part of most religions.

 

The ideal would be that religion would not affect politics in general and people would accept and understand different views and respecting them not try to impose their own views upon the other, then politics would be secular and religion not be political. In Finland this is quite apparent and religion is only rarely mentioned in political discussion, it's however still there so the development has not quite reached the ideal point. Also there is still quite a lot racism around which goes against this mutual understanding. I'm thankful though that the local churches has understood this fairly well and almost never participates in the political dialogue.

Hopefully this will spread on to the rest of the world and we'll be spared from quite a lot of misery, I'm not too hopeful for it to happen anytime soon though, but as long as politics and religion walk together hand in hand only conflict will follow.

 

NOG, actually no many Christians dont regard the old testament as relevant. many many of them say it is old hat.

as for your cruel god, I dont see the need to worship a being who threatens for me eternal damnation becauseI wont fuel his ego.

 

Morgoroth:

True, but, like most ideals, that is not a realistic situation. Especially these days when you have things like stem cell research, abortion, and the like. On issues of any level of moral or ethical ambiguity, religion is sure to come in as a major deciding factor for most religious people. Even without these issues, though, there are things like how to deal with the poor, elderly, and orphaned, whether any particular war is appropriate, how much budget should go to what projects, etc. Simply speaking, as long as religions teach moral values, which is pretty much the definition of religion, it will be sure to impact politics in some way, because they simply have common ground.

I think the ideal, but practical, situation is one in which the moral values of the people are considered along with all the practical concerns, and without bias, anger, bigotry, etc. That may also be unachievable, but I see at least a glimmer of hope for it.

Proteus:

Find me one that says the Old Testament isn't important and yet knows who Paul was. And I mean more than 'He wrote a bunch of letters.' In general, the type of 'Christian' you are talking about is what we call a 'Sunday-morning Christian'. This means they go to church on Sunday morning, may even go to a Bible study, but the rest of the week they curse, gamble, cheat on their wives (or husbands) and the like. They have never actually been saved and don't have a clue what Christianity is actually about. They go to church because it is 'cool' or 'popular' or 'expected'. In short, they aren't Christians.

Now the Old Testament laws concerning what is clean and unclean are not an issue anymore, except for understanding the contexts of the Bible.

 

It is clear that you believe that as an article of your faith. I, however, will never condone genocide....even if ordered by a supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent deity. The God of the old testament is the same God that took the life of David's son for the sin of his father, killed the wife of Lot for turning around and, *gasp*, looking as they fled Gomorah (where, I might add, Lot showed his "virtue" by offering his virgin daughters to a mob hell bent on rape), and took the wives and children from Job on a bet (and don't get me started on Job's reward. If I lost my wife and children, getting more wives and children than I had before as a "reward" would be no consolation.....love isn't about quantity, but quality.) When I read the old testament, God looks rather capricious, to me.

 

Religion, miscommunication, misunderstanding, lack of courage in leaders...

So to prevent genocide we must commit genocide? To prevent the murder of chldren we must murder children?

Isn't He omnipotent? He can't do better than that?

No wonder I don't worship Him.

 

The moral values really do not need to be spread to everyone, those who want the values are sure to approach the church. If someone does not share the same values they should not be forced to live by them, if they are they will certainly not convert to your religious cause but rather get bitter about it which probably really is not the desired result. Morality can be very well be taught on the individual level, or to the people who actually belong to the church. Individual churches do not represent everyone on this globe and (in most cases) not even in a particular country and they should stop pretending that they do. Some churches have figured this out but unfortunately most haven't. And as long as they won't they will be creating bitterness and anger in those that don't share the same views.

So this is really not something that can't be done it's just something that most churches do not want to do, which is unfortunate in many ways.

 

Quoted for irony. Politics and Morality have something in common? Hah!

 

That is rather ironic - politics and morality!

NOG, the people who said this to me were devout christians full of endless quotes from the bible, even the old testament, and unshakeable faith.

Why is it, when I present a different angle to christianity other than the one you believe (and note this angle isnt mine its someone else) you doubt the authenticity of my claim? how many other christians of different faiths do you know? how many anglicans, baptists, catholics, protestants...

You only know your angle on christianity, and even you have to admit everyone seems to have a different opinion on the faith, and yet you doubt that someone else might be a serious christian but not regard the old testament as important from a moral point of view? their view is that whatever jesus said, if it contradicts the old testament, is to be believed. hes the new face of christianity.

Its not faith that causes wars - faith is abused by religion for the purposes of war, for what is religion other than faith with politics?

 

It seems as though I recall this god of yours ordered mass murder because Kanaan was already inhabited and the population needed to be done away with... in order to make room for "God's Chosen".

... but the "child sacrifice" thing makes it more palatable for the modern crowd, I suppose.

 

Religious war is just an excuse for amassing power. (Cultural) misunderstandings are either an excuse (that's why the phrase has been made fun of in 'Mars Attacks!'), or can be resolved. If not, the war is convenient for amassing power.

The lack of courage in leaders is too much of a stretch for me. I don't understand what you mean by it.

 

AMaster:

Ah, but He doesn't interfere in human will, as a rule of course. He doesn't force people to choose Him.

Morgoroth:

So if you found out that your next door neighbor was raping women right and left, none of the women wanted to report it, and the police just didn't seem to care (they have accepted rape as a moral choice), you're saying you wouldn't do anything? Now I'm not trying to draw any absolute connections, but when Christians see something like abortion accepted as a moral option, we stand up and speak, because the victims can't. Now abortion itself is an issue for another topic, what I'm saying is that some issues of morality should be spread. For others, like religious words spread through the radio, its just an issue of one rule for all. As long as you have one set of laws that everyone has to obey, you are forcing some set of morality on people.

Proteus:

Then I am amazed at their blindness.

It is because the vision of Christianity you present is so vastly different than my experience. And to your other question, I have known many baptists, catholics, mormons, anglicans, presbyterians, evangelicals, charismatcs, and members of a number of other groups. I have known members of most who were in good an bad spiritual situations, who actually were saved and who just went to church on Sundays. I say the things I say because, from my experience, it is usually true.

There's my problem. Jesus doesn't contradict the Old Testament, except on issues of cleanliness. In fact, He says that He didn't come to remove or invalidate one letter of the old law, but to fulfill it.

Dendri:

Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. Molech (Moleck?) and Asherah were heavily worshiped in that region. Molech demanded the first born (son?) of every family be burn alive, and Asherah demanded that all children (I think it was all) 'pass through the flames'. Needless to say, a lot didn't make it. This wasn't just getting the current people out of the land, it was judgement.