Religious Curiousity

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Shadow_Thief,

Yes, I am an "I love God" person.

It's time for me to leave now. If you want to debate any further, I recommend going back and re-reading what BigGreenPriest has written. Better yet, I would recommend picking up a Bible and reading it. Try starting with the four gospels.

If Fljotsdale wants to respond with any questions for me, she may e-mail me. Debating just for the sake of debate, though, would not be profitable.

May God's grace and mercy be upon us all.

LGW

 

Got no religion. But when I need stuff, I am sure to pray to 1 god and only 1 god. I dont like to deal with religious jibba jabba (Mr T Style). Only go to church if im forced to.

 

To Little Green Worm
Hi, LGW!
Sorry to take so long getting back to you with this – you wouldn’t believe how busy I am at the present! Besides which – I bought Throne of Bhaal day before yesterday!

Anyway…
I go along with you as far as the paragraph beginning ‘And so one question becomes "why do we have free will?"’

Ok. I do not intend to answer you point by point – though I may bring up some points – but rather to answer the theme of your argument.
However, first:
I must put you right on things you are assuming about my beliefs: you make statements that I (Fljotsdale) ‘believe’ in god, and that I ‘know’ there is a god, that I ‘know’ god will judge me, that I ‘know’ the way of forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
I must assume in my turn that you refer to the bible god/other gods known to man. Regarding all of them I am Atheist, as I have stated clearly before. They are man-made. Regarding the possible existence of a genuine creator I am Agnostic. So, please do not make such unfounded assumptions. They are incorrect. OK?

Right then:

Let me ask YOU some questions:
1. Is it right that the exercise of one person’s (or group’s) free will should jeopardise the free will of another?
2. Is it just when one person’s (or group’s) exercise of free will, against the will of another, HARMS another?
3. Would you not like to enjoy a free will that has no evil consequences?
(I shall expand on some of these points later in the post).
I answer ‘no’ to the first two and ‘yes’ to the third. I know it is ‘pie in the sky’ to expect the 3rd – but it is something WE ALL WANT. It seems to me to be a perfectly normal desire. And you, as a christian, are looking for those 3 things too. Your very desire to live in heaven in peace and love is an expression of that passionate desire that lies in the heart of all of us – we WANT peace, harmony, friendly relations with all.
But you are correct. We also stubbornly and unreasonably ‘want our own way’. We want to exercise our free will to do what WE want, and damn the consequences.
Yes, we WOULD resent someone interfering to stop us smoking that cigarette that is harming us and our unborn children; stop us dropping bombs on each other (though the people UNDER the bombs would be happy!); stop us profiting from the hardship of others; stop us beating our partner; etc, etc.
But think a minute: think of the last time you did something you ought not to have done. Yes, you did it ‘cos you wanted to – but did not a part of you wish you were not doing it? I am not talking about being sorry AFTER the event - that is what children do -but regretting it while in process of DOING it.
That is how I am, anyway. In fact, I (and I believe you also) am usually able to stop myself BEFORE the action, because I regret it before doing it. Most people do this. It is possible because we are able to foresee harmful consequences, and know that the brief illicit pleasure of doing something we WANT to do is NOT worth the subsequent harm.
Now, suppose you have an overwhelming urge to do something that you know is going to cause harm, but are not strong enough to resist your desire, would you not welcome a ‘diversion’ as much as you would resent it? Suppose you were about to commit adultery and someone else walked in on you before you actually did it. You’d be angry – but wouldn’t you also be relieved?
*As children we test out how far we can go with our parents. We get ourselves into situations we actually KNOW are dangerous. We WANT to be stopped, but don’t have the guts to pull back ourselves in case we ‘lose face’. I remember many times as a child being truly thankful for the appearance of a parent who put a stop to my activities, even though objecting vociferously in order to keep up appearances. I also remember times no parent was present/showed up in time, and I suffered harm, either emotional or physical – times when I was mentally begging them to show up, and feeling terribly abandoned, let down, and unloved that they did not. Young children have a tendency to look upon their parents as infallible ‘god’-type people.*
But as we grow to adulthood we discover that they are not, and we learn how to ‘parent’ ourselves, to be responsible for our own actions, to control our own actions and desires.
*Apply the starred paragraph to your conception of man’s relationship with god. You see your god as a loving father and mankind as his children. You depend upon him in the same way that a young child does its parents. Yes? But you do not seem to expect the same degree of care from him that a parent is normally expected to give a child. You allow your god/father to neglect you in the most shockingly callous ways and then excuse it because you have ‘free will’. (of course, this is inevitable, in my opinion, due to your god’s non-existence). But YOU believe in him. So, as I keep asking all you believers, how do you account for his neglect, other than the oft-repeated excuse of ‘free will’? Go back to the parent/child relationship – again, as I have mentioned before. Ask yourself how you behave towards your children and how much regard you give to their ‘free will’ in certain circumstances!

Consider the following:
1. Do you go away for extended periods of time leaving your young children alone with no more than an instruction book to guide their behaviour while you are away? Bear in mind, too, that you KNOW a wicked person (the devil, in this instance), with a likeminded gang (his demons), is lurking in the area waiting for just such an opportunity to get at your children – and your children are NOT ONLY inexperienced, but some of them are unable to read your book.

2. All parents allow their children to make mistakes, yes. Mistakes are an effective learning mechanism. But would you allow them to do things that are clearly dangerous WITHOUT SUPERVISION, and without being sure that you can extricate them from any danger? Certainly, one cannot wrap a child in cotton-wool and protect it from ALL danger, but a wise parent is VERY careful to ensure that everything possible is done without unduly restricting the child.

3. Do you stand by and let your children suffer the consequences of their own folly if they get into difficulty in the water (for example) because they got out of their depth? Would you have the attitude – ‘s/he got into it, let her/him get out of it. It was her/his choice to out so far. I can’t interfere with his/her free choice.’?

I think you would agree that any human parent who behaved in any of the above 3 ways would rapidly be up in front of a court of law for gross neglect, and it is even possible that the children would be removed from that parents care. I think you would also agree that the court’s decision was correct.
YET THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE EXCUSING YOUR GOD FOR DOING.

I am not actually blaming your god for anything. How can I when I do not believe in him?
What I HAVE been doing in all my posts, in one way or another, is to point out the discrepancies in your PERCEPTION of your god and the REALITIES of the situation humanity is in.
As a father, your god should be protecting his children – never mind the ‘free will’ bit. Look at it this way:
a) Would you allow your 10yr old to exercise ‘free will’ in regard to smoking? To having sex? To playing with lethal weapons? OR WOULD YOU STOP THE CHILD – THUS INTERFERING WITH ITS ‘FREE WILL’ – because you know the activity is innately harmful to the child?
b) Would you allow another adult to exercise ‘free will’ to abuse your child by maiming it, violating it sexually, enslaving it, subjecting it to starvation? OR WOULD YOU STOP THE ADULT – THUS INTERFERING WITH ITS FREE WILL – to protect your child?

YET YOU ARE EXCUSING YOUR GOD ON THE GROUNDS THAT HE CANNOT INTERFERE WITH ‘GOD-GIVEN FREE WILL’. (Capitals are for emphasis - I am not shouting!)

You believe this god of yours is the arbiter and judge of what is right and wrong behaviour, and you say my standards regarding justice are my own. You say, to paraphrase, that standards of justice differ from country to country and from one religion to another.
Neither is the case. DETAILS may differ, BASIC standards do not. They remain the same world-wide, because they are basic HUMAN standards. They were established very early in the human timeline in order for people to get along together in a group. ALL group-living animals have the same standards, and those standards are rooted in survival. We do not need a ‘transcendent’ moral law. Human society, human nature - life itself - imposes its own.
Why do I, an Atheist, have the same standards as you, the believer? You may say it is my religious background or my society. You would be partly correct, of course. But I have also carefully considered the standards I learned, have observed society and religion, and have rejected all that seems to me to be harmful (like hating/despising others on grounds of race, religion, sex, education, class, status, wealth, etc), and have been left with the basics of conduct that I have now.

I have no fear of godly retribution, or desire for godly approval to keep me from abusing my fellow man.
Therefore I more truly exercise ‘free will’ than do you. Therefore, I also have greater moral responsibility than does the believer.

I am free, but I choose not to be free. Because I am a human being, with innate human standards.

Regards.


[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 10, 2001).]

 

Flojtsdale! You heathen bastard!

You make complete sense.

As it is, I can understand completely where you are coming from. However, I believe that you are wrong.

1. Baptism, whether physical or spiritual makes us God's children. Due to original sin, we cannot be children of God unless we rid ourselves of that flaw. The church states that there are three different types of Baptism. Physical - water and oil. Martyr - dying for the faith. Spiritual - perhaps not being Christian, but being decidedly good throughout your life.

2. God does protect us. The protections that God offers are wisdom and knowledge. The words that were passed to Adam, Eve, Kane, Able, Abraham, Noah, etc. are still the same words that are passed on to us. Most of the beliefs in this world are passed on from father to son.

3. This life is not infinite. (Duh, now I feel really stupid) It is more of a test. An eighty year test!? Yes. When compared to the infinity of Heaven, eighty years is but a drop in the ocean. How do we reach Heaven? Through a life and death of goodness. One of the saints said that death is only to be feared by the wicked.

4. Free will is the most amazing and horrifying part of this world. You are most definately right when you speak of free will. Interfering with free will can be either good, bad, or indifferent. God did not give us free will with the intent that we could run around killing people, but with the intent of letting us experience life, and later, death. Can you imagine getting rewarded without doing any effort? Okay, admittedly a dumb question. Can you imagine receiving the one and only true gift that could literally excite and impress you for all eternity without doing any effort?

If you really want to "see" into the next life, get a book out of a library. But especially one book in particular: "Purgatory". It is frightening in its clarity, and should clear up any questions about what is right and wrong to do in this life.

 

To Sapiryl, (my responses to Sapiryl are in bold type)

Flojtsdale! You heathen bastard!
You make complete sense.

/LOL! Glad you think so!

As it is, I can understand completely where you are coming from. However, I believe that you are wrong.
1. Baptism, whether physical or spiritual makes us God's children. Due to original sin, we cannot be children of God unless we rid ourselves of that flaw. The church states that there are three different types of Baptism. Physical - water and oil. Martyr - dying for the faith. Spiritual - perhaps not being Christian, but being decidedly good throughout your life.

/I disagree about baptism making people children of god. That would mean all non-christians have had it! But Adam & Eve were called children of god in the bible. That makes every human that ever lived a child of god. Baptism not required for that status.
The teachings of ‘the church’ that you cite above are not wholly scriptural. In the first place, ‘water baptism’ meant total immersion of the taught, believing adult who has given his life over to following Jesus Christ, not the ritual sprinkling of an ignorant infant as practised by ‘the church’. This total immersion was first practised by John the Baptist to prepare a body of people for Christ. ‘Spiritual baptism’ – by fire, as at Pentecost – seems to have occurred only once in the bible record, and was a confirmation of god’s blessing on those who had been baptised in water. And ‘martyr baptism’ is purely a ‘church’ thing – at least there is no reference to it in the bible.

2. God does protect us. The protections that God offers are wisdom and knowledge. The words that were passed to Adam, Eve, Kane, Able, Abraham, Noah, etc. are still the same words that are passed on to us. Most of the beliefs in this world are passed on from father to son.

/Yes, we all try to pass on our wisdom and knowledge to our children, and it can, and sometimes does, give some protection to our children. But is only a PART of the care they need, not the whole of it. We can WARN children of the dangers of crossing a road, for example, by teaching them the Highway Code for pedestrians. But it is much more practical, and safer, to take them across ourselves until we are positive they can accurately judge the distance and speed of approaching vehicles, and have the common sense not to take chances. We would not be adequately protecting our children if we did not. Knowledge and information ALONE are not enough. A 3yr old can know the Code for pedestrians, but could you trust his/her judgement?

3. This life is not infinite. (Duh, now I feel really stupid) It is more of a test. An eighty year test!? Yes. When compared to the infinity of Heaven, eighty years is but a drop in the ocean. How do we reach Heaven? Through a life and death of goodness. One of the saints said that death is only to be feared by the wicked.

/A test to see if we are fit to go to heaven? Right. I wonder if you ever noticed that Adam and Eve were intended to live forever ON EARTH? Heaven was not a prospect for mankind initially. (Re-read the first 3 chapters of Genesis). Heaven only came into the picture with Christ, and only a limited number were to go to heaven, the rest were to live forever on earth. (Read Revelation)!

4. Free will is the most amazing and horrifying part of this world. You are most definately right when you speak of free will. Interfering with free will can be either good, bad, or indifferent. God did not give us free will with the intent that we could run around killing people, but with the intent of letting us experience life, and later, death.

/The bible tells us (Genesis) that death was not meant to be a human experience.

Can you imagine getting rewarded without doing any effort? Okay, admittedly a dumb question. Can you imagine receiving the one and only true gift that could literally excite and impress you for all eternity without doing any effort?

/An amazing number of christians think that just carrying the label ‘christian’ is sufficient to get the ‘reward’.

If you really want to "see" into the next life, get a book out of a library. But especially one book in particular: "Purgatory". It is frightening in its clarity, and should clear up any questions about what is right and wrong to do in this life.

/Purgatory is a purely fictional ‘church’ doctrine and cannot be laid at the door of your god at all! You will not find either the word or the concept in the bible. Besides which – who wants to be frightened into worshipping god?
I do not need questions of right and wrong clearing up for me. Common sense, information and compassion answer most right/wrong issues – and the ones that are difficult must be left to individual conscience.

Regards!



[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 10, 2001).]

 

I don't think "the divine" cares about the religions' name and what the legends say.
In fact the legends mean less than the basic philosophy behind. The legends are there so all people can understand these things.
Anyway:
God did not make alcohol, drugs and such.
Humans' did. It's really easy to blame God for everything.
An important thing to remember is that he
(From now on I'll just call him/her "he".
I'm getting tired of typing 2 words every time)isn't human.
Wich of course means he think's very differently.
He does not intervene. That means WE have to intervene ourselves.
AND THAT'S THE POINT!
He want's us to DO something.
Another thing:
Try to think about insects.
We can easily kill them by moving a finger, if they irritate us.
But what if we were insects?
What if there existed giant creatures who killed us, just for annoying them?
Humans are nothing but insects to God.
He does not kill us, because he is BETTER than us.
He isn't so thoughtless he just kills every annoying little human.

 

"God did not make alcohol, drugs and such."

You might not think so, but Christians do; Jesus of Nazareth could apparently make better wine than the groom at Canaan could afford to buy his guests.

... and who created the cannabis plant?

[Edit: I should point out though that I'm not saying Christianity permits the use of alcohol since this seems to be open to debate; a tight-lipped Temperance missionary once said to me, "Well, when you can turn water into wine, you can drink it too!"]


[This message has been edited by Sprite (edited August 11, 2001).]

 

well lets see... the pot plant grows naturally and is not processed to make the drug so i believe it is gods creation to cure menstrul cramps *giggle*

 

Sprite - you CAN turn water into wine! Add grapes and sugar and wait...

Kitiara - tut, tut! Sigh...

I think maybe this thread is degenerating...

Just a bit!

 

God made the plants' but...it was humans who found out what they could be (mis)used to.
I have already guessed your reply
so here's the answer:
Because everything is damn dangerous if misused. Everything is dangerous in too large doses. Only eating one kind of food can cause a lot of health problems.
CO2 is poison to plants if they get too much.
Besides...people in the Bible drink wine, but they don't get drunk.

 

Errrmmmm .... How about Noah, then? He got blind drunk and apparantly took all his clothes off and lay in his tent in a drunken stupor... (Genesis 9:20,21)

 

The Bible has even more interesting parts than Noah's wanton alchohol abuse. At one point God commanded the Israelites to conquer Canaan and kill everyone.

Well, not exactly everyone. In His eternal pragmatism, God demanded that the young virgins be enslaved for sexual purposes.

If anyone has any doubts, I'll pull up the actual passage.

 

Not exactly enslaved, Deviant. I haven't checked it out, but weren't the Israelite men to marry them? Maybe not, though, 'cos inter-religious marriage was definitely not encouraged. I'll check it out as well.

PS. No, have checked out all the key-words - canaan/ite/s, virgin, marriage, etc, and all I can find are strictures against alliances with canaanite women. So please post your references, ok?

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 12, 2001).]

 

Ok, check back here soon. I'll edit it into this post(both the citation and the quotation).

EDIT
{
[Following a battle with the Medianites(I was wrong about it being Canaanites, probably why you couldn't find it), in which the Israelites had killed every man and taken the women and children captive, Moses said,]"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him[i.e. kill all prisoners save the female virgins]. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:17-18)

There plenty more bizarre madness contained in the "Good Book." Maybe I'll post some more later.
}

[This message has been edited by The Deviant Mage (edited August 13, 2001).]

 

Geez! I think I left this post alone for a few days and suddenly I had about 30 minutes-worth to catch up on.

I feel a little intimidated in here. Firstly, my de-vastified (yes, it's a made up word) vocabulary is nothing compaired to everyone else's in here. Secondly, my speeeeelling sucks. And, Thirdly, I fear I don't have all the knowledge of the Bible that I really wish I had.

I'm 17 years old and have been raised in a Protestant family. I was an athiest from about the ages of 8-15, but I now would like to consider myself a protestant once again. I have pledged that I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of the living God, etc, etc. Now, assuming that it is true, the Bible says that once you are written into the book of Life, you can never be removed. Assuming this, I can resort to my old ways of atheism and be fine; however, I don't believe that will be happening for many reasons I would prefer not to discuss for the sake of my fingers and brain most likely tiring from fatigue.

As mentioned above, I fear that I do not have all the knowledge that I wish I had, but here are my two questions that have been bothering me:

1. Why did God give us this option?

2. I know that once in heaven, we will be "rewarded" depending on how many souls we have won God. What if I haven't won him any souls? What will I get then? FOREVER is a truly scary thought for me.

I guess if you really think about it, life really kind of sucks at either end you look at it in unless you believe in reincarnation. Sure, I get to go to Heaven according to the Bible, but I'm scared as hell of that one word "Forever". I know that it is said we will never be bored while we are there, but still... it's FOREVER...

Yngwie Malmsteen states it quite well: "Forever is a long, long, time."

Is anyone else scared by this thought?

[This message has been edited by Vile (edited August 13, 2001).]

 

Flojtsdale:

You are correct in your statements, to a degree. The Bible does not state anything about Purgatory, nor is there anything about Martyr baptism. However, they are teachings of the church. (Catholic Church, I must clarify). They are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And yes, humans were meant to live forever on Earth...if they could meet God's standards. I have read Genesis and Revelations and Sirach and every other book of the Bible. You think the Bible is comprehensive? Ha! Have you ever read the Gospel According to Thomas? There is one, but it is not in any modern Bibles. It was deemed "too fanatical".

P.S. - we cannot all be children of God if Adam and Eve sinned. That purity is gone, it is akin to having lung cancer in your family line. Great steps need to be taken in order to avoid getting it.

 

Sapiryl

You posted:
You are correct in your statements, to a degree. The Bible does not state anything about Purgatory, nor is there anything about Martyr baptism. However, they are teachings of the church. (Catholic Church, I must clarify). They are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

My Comments:
I take it you are Catholic? I have no desire to criticise you as a person, but Catholicism has some doctrines that are quite unscriptural you know. Are you aware, for example, that the bible says, in at least 3 places, that you should neither add to nor take away from the word of god? (Deuteronomy 4:2; Proverbs 30:5,6; Revelation 22:18,19). Now, I grant you that a LOT was written following Deuteronomy and Proverbs, and that even Revelation was not the last-written book of the NT, but not even the Catholic Church has actually added the doctrines of Purgatory, Limbo, etc to what is called the 'inspired canon' of the scriptures. Why believe in them when they are not bible teachings?

You wrote:
And yes, humans were meant to live forever on Earth...if they could meet God's standards. I have read Genesis and Revelations and Sirach and every other book of the Bible. You think the Bible is comprehensive? Ha! Have you ever read the Gospel According to Thomas? There is one, but it is not in any modern Bibles. It was deemed "too fanatical".

My comments:
I am not familiar with the book of Sirach since I do not own a Catholic bible. I must make a point of obtaining one. No, I have not read Thomas, nor more than briefly looked at the other Apocryphal books, as contained in the Catholic bible, though I am certainly aware of their existence. From what little I have read of them they seem more like the little Catholic booklet stories I used to read as a child - very like 'holy' fairy tales, stuffed with all sorts of pious 'tall' fictions - than canonical bible books. But I speak from VERY little knowledge of them.

You wrote:
P.S. - we cannot all be children of God if Adam and Eve sinned. That purity is gone, it is akin to having lung cancer in your family line. Great steps need to be taken in order to avoid getting it.

My comments:
Errrmmmm..... 'Scuse me? How does that follow? It is like saying your legitimate children become bastards if they don't do as you tell them. Not possible. But, even if it was, whatever happened to genetics? Adam & Eve were said to be created 'in the image of god'. It therefore follows that their children were too, even if they developed an imperfection (like cancer). Would YOU reject a child of yours just because it had an imperfection (like Down's Syndrome or Muscular Dystrophy)? The bible does not make the claim that mankind stopped being god's children just because they were no longer perfect.
I'm sorry, but I can't see the logic of your argument.

Regards

Deviant Mage

Yeah! I remember it now I have read it again!
I think many of these girls and young women went into 'service' of one sort or another - usually as servants, I think, rather than as sex-slaves as you intimated; though it is not made clear either way. If you read on a bit at verses 35, 40, 41, 47 you get an idea of the numbers involved, and most of them would have been very young indeed, even babies and toddlers. The Hebrews did use slaves. A further clarification of what happened to some of them is at Deuteronomy 21:10-14. But no - it is not a very edifying record, is it?


[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 13, 2001).]

 

I can see that you are much more knowledgable (sp?) about religion in general than I am, and I bow to your superior intelligence (no, I am not being sarcastic).

Flojtsdale:

You say that the Catholic Church deviates from the very teachings that it applauds. In this you are correct, but (to split hairs ) the Protestant sects cut what, 9 books? from the bible.

Another thing, our souls are made in God's own image. I don't believe that anything physical could truly reflect God's image. Even Christ muted his grandeur to the eyes of man. (This is seen when he transfigures on the...um...that...hill. Sorry, I don't have a bible here with me - I'm at work - and I don't remember where they were. Pretty silly of me, especially when I told you that I read the entire Bible. I did, but I don't sound like it.)

I don't mean to sound superior here, but I'll hold to Catholisism until I die (hopefully after as well) I just can't explain it succinctly.

P.S. - The Rosary is not taught in the Bible either, but it is the most widespread form of Catholic prayer.

 

On a slightly different note, what's up with the Rapture? It's been a while since I've read about it, but wasn't it fabricated by some Protestant theologian(can't be more specific than Protestant...again, it's been a while) only a couple hundred years ago?

So how did it sink into the collective beliefs of so many?

 

Been trying to post this all afternoon, but it keeps 'timing out'. GRRRR!

Vile:
Don't worry about your vocabulary and spelling! Quite a lot of people can't spell - I make mistakes as well, lol! - and many young people have not yet developed a wide vocabulary. I comes with age and reading books written by people with a wide vocabularly. Be patient with yourself!

You wrote (in part):
Now, assuming that it is true, the Bible says that once you are written into the book of Life, you can never be removed. Assuming this, I can resort to my old ways of atheism and be fine;

My comments:
Neither of those assumptions is completely correct, Vile.
Read Revelation 3:5. You will see that your name is not written into the Book of Life UNTIL you have 'conquered'. In other words, you have to be faithful till you die - which means that if you go back to your 'old ways' you never get written in at all. Then Revelation 21:15 tells what happens to those NOT written into the Book of Life.

You wrote:
As mentioned above, I fear that I do not have all the knowledge that I wish I had, but here are my two questions that have been bothering me:

1. Why did God give us this option?

Me:
Not sure what options you mean, Vile.

You wrote:
2. I know that once in heaven, we will be "rewarded" depending on how many souls we have won God. What if I haven't won him any souls? What will I get then? FOREVER is a truly scary thought for me.

My comments:
Who the dickens told you that? It is certainly not in the bible! The bible DOES ask the believer to teach others, but it SAYS NOTHING WHATEVER about having to 'win souls for god' in order to get the 'reward'.
Sheesh! I get so mad when people are taught stuff like that. Vile, read Luke 10:25-28 and The Sermon on the Mount at Matthew 5:3-16. They tell you what is required of the christian.

You wrote:
I guess if you really think about it, life really kind of sucks at either end you look at it in unless you believe in reincarnation. Sure, I get to go to Heaven according to the Bible, but I'm scared as hell of that one word "Forever". I know that it is said we will never be bored while we are there, but still... it's FOREVER...

Is anyone else scared by this thought?

My comments:
Scary. Awesome. Yeah. I, personally, am not a 'believer' and do not think I go to either heaven or hell... but I sorta like the idea of forever in a way. If you are not tied to a body you could explore the whole universe in detail... I don't think that would be boring. 'Sitting on a cloud' singing everlasting praises to god would be deadly...
But, you know, even if you get to live forever, I don't think you would go round thinking 'this is forever' and feeling scared. It is only when you get to my age that you even START seriously thinking about death. (Most people FEEL they will live forever anyway, as human beings, until old age hits them, lol!).
If you want a bible verse, how about this one 'god has put life everlasting into their hearts' Ecclesiates 3:11. Read the whole verse - it may help.

Regards.

Deviant Mage?

I'm not much into CHURCH teachings - other than Catholic ones; I was brought up Catholic - remind me about 'the Rapture' please? Then I might have an answer - or not, as the case may be, lol!



Hi, Sapiryl!

Regarding the Apocryphal books in the Catholic bible:
There are several reasons for their exclusion from non-Catholic bibles, though I do not remember all of them. What I DO remember is as follows: (1) The apocryphal books do not harmonise with the rest of the bible canon; (2) Although some are historic they carry no biblical theme or prophecy; (3) Some are so far-fetched as to be clearly works of fiction. (4) Jesus never quoted/paraphrased from them, and he quoted/paraphrased from most the recognised canon.
I must admit that I have no reference work to hand to substantiate my comments – they are simply what I remember from past reading. However, if I find anything in the next few days I will post it, ok?

Regarding your comment ‘our souls are made in god’s image. I don’t think anything physical could truly reflect god’s image’:
Let me quote from the bible: “And god went on to say ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness…’ And god proceeded to make man in his image, in god’s image he created him; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:26,27)
Well, I don’t know how you read that, but it seems pretty plain to me that it was a physical image. Add to that Genesis 2:7 “And god proceeded to form the man out of the dust of the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life and the man came to be a living soul.” See? He didn’t have a soul ADDED to him – he BECAME a soul as soon as he started breathing. We do not HAVE souls, we ARE souls.
Now, THAT will cause some debate on this board!! (ROFLMAO!) I will prepare for brickbats and rotten tomatoes!

Rosary:
I wonder if you are aware of the pagan origins of the Rosary? Makes interesting reading if you would like me to post it!




[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 14, 2001).]