Revenge of the Sith *spoilers*

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I should say that I could see myself doing it, not that I defniately would or would not. I mean I can definately see as to why he would bring himself to do the horrendous acts that he did.

 

Back again for some more. I’ve got my ROTS soundtrack playing in the background, and I’m ready to go. Now, Foradasthar, you bring up a good point at the top of this page about Vader’s strength and the effort it takes Yoda to make the X-wing rise. There is a lot of debate about midichlorians (going beyond whether or not so and so likes them or not). Some say that oh the less body you have, the less midis you have. And that would go well with the theme of the less human/lively you are, the harder it is for the Force to work/flow in you. Others argue that midis are per cell. So it doesn’t matter how many cells you have, as long as you have one cell you still have the number of midis you need to be receptive to the Force and use it in an expressive way. Or something like that. I might be mis-representing that argument though in the cell count part. But I do agree with the midis being the receptive part of the Force. That’s what doesn’t ruin the mystery part of the Force for me with the midis. It’s not that the midis take away the mystery, they just explain why some people are more receptive to the Force. How the Force is expressed is still a mystery. Exactly how the Force flows is not explained in Star Wars, so the mystery is still there.

But, back to midis and Vader’s strength. In interviews lately, Lucas is making it very clear that Vader is weaker after his defeat on Mustafar. So it seems Lucas is favoring the first argument: that the less body you have, the less midis. I haven’t finalized my opinions on this. But I lean towards something like this: at the time Anakin becomes Vader, he is a very skilled Jedi, but he knows little of how to use the dark side Force. But that’s ok, because as Palps inhales over Anakin during his knighting as Lord Vader (a scene that will most certainly be spoofed so hard, because it’s pure SW cheese) Palps knows that Vader has the potential to do grand things with Palp’s teaching. More midis = more dark side experimentation. How powerful would force lightning be coming from someone as attuned to the Force as Vader? Downright devastating! But before he can get any real training, Vader gets his remaining limbs loped off, (hey at least he gets to keep his mechanical one ) and gets in the suit. And so now that vast potential is lost. Is Vader still powerful? Yes, as you noted Foradasthar, Vader emits a powerful force wave upon hearing about Padme’s death. I believe that he has for the most part everything he had when he was still Anakin. It’s just further potential that is denied. It’s like having the potential to be a level 40 character someday, but then you encounter a devastating bug and you discover your character is stuck at level 26. Now 26 is still a high level, but let’s face it - it’s not what you were promised. You wanted 40! Not 26! And that’s frustrating, but that’s just one of the many prices Vader paid.

Now about Yoda. When ESB was made and there was very little foreknowledge of the prequels except for a few cool ideas floating around in Lucas’ head, I am sure it was genuine that Yoda was trying his all to lift that X-Wing, in peaceful concentration that is. But give the prequels some credit. At least they have shown Yoda having to really concentrate and heave-ho as far as lifting heavy objects are concerned. The battle with Dooku in AOTC and with Palps in ROTS shows this. And it isn’t too much of a stretch that Yoda is not trying to make it look effortless to Luke that he can lift an X-Wing with more ease then he lets on. How so? Because Yoda isn’t out to show off and piss Luke off. He’s just teaching him a lesson, and modeling discipline and good concentration. So it works.

Harbourboy, you brought up a good question about why in the world would they place Luke on Tatooine. Are they idiots or what? And the ironic answer to this is, all throughout the prequels they have been idiots! The decision to place Luke *with his family on Tatooine* is actually not idiotic at all! It’s the first good decision the new and improved Yoda makes. Vader and Palps think Yoda and the Jedi are idiots, that’s how they fell from grace in the first place. They don’t realize that after Yoda’s humiliating stand-off with Big Daddy “I AM THE SENATE” Palps, that Yoda actually learns his lesson. And then you find out that Yoda is getting some bonus training on the side from Qui-Gon (more on that later). But what I am getting at is, Anakin becomes Vader because he wants the power to control the lives/deaths of the ones he loves. This is greatly affected by the fact that he was taken away from his own mother to become a Jedi, and he had to disobey orders to see he again, and even then he couldn’t save her. And Palps knows this is a vital flaw in the Jedi’s philosophy, a flaw that can exploited with Anakin. And so therefore, even if, and it’s a big if, if the baby (remember, they don’t know it’s twins) did end up being born. That baby would be with the remaining Jedi, certainly not the baby’s family. Who ever heard of the Jedi letting a force hopeful be raised by their own family? In Jedi philosophy at the time of the prequels, that is ludicrous. Vader and Palps would have no reason to suspect such a move by the Jedi, if they even had reason to suspect at all. You mix that in with Tatooine no longer meaning anything to Vader, as inferred from his statement to Luke in ROTJ about the name ‘Anakin’ - “that name no longer has any meaning to me.” But primarily, it’s the whole “Jedi don’t place force-hopefuls with their family, that would be too attachment prone” mentality that makes it work out beautifully. I’m not saying Lucas had it planned like that from the originals, but it is clear that he had that planned since the conception of TPM.

And so not only does it make the story more compelling and tie the trilogies together, it also explains the positive side of the Jedi purge and a great characterization of Yoda throughout the saga. Lucas could have decided to have the Jedi be flawless in the prequels, and Yoda be the all out wise sage that he is in ESB and ROTJ, but that would be a cop out. No, instead we get flawed Jedi and a flawed Yoda, and in the end that is far better storytelling. The philosophy of the Jedi to take young children away from their families in order to reduce attachments was wrong. What happened with Anakin is the ultimate example of this. All that mumbo jumbo about having no attachments was flawed. There is some truth to it, sure you have to learn to let go. But in order to learn to let go, you’ve got to have something to let go of in the first place. The Jedi were denying an important aspect of humanity from their members: the freedom to love. And for what? Fear! Fear of losing control by being blinded by attachments. But wait, isn’t fear what Yoda is always warning about, and yet a philosophy he endorses is rooted in that very emotion. Love is far better than fear. And it takes the events of the prequels to teach that to Yoda. But now, it’s not like Yoda abandons his old philosophy completely, nor does he need to. Like I said, it’s not all bad. You can’t have one extreme or the other. If you want to be effective and make the right decisions, you can’t be completely blinded by love, and you can’t completely shove love out of the picture either. You need a balance. And the evidence for balance in a transformed, post-stand-off with Palps, wiser Yoda, is displayed through his choice to place Luke with his family on Tatooine. (His comments about Luke being too old for training on Dagobah in ESB are clearly a test of patience as is his silly acting, so that does not conflict.) But then in ESB we see Yoda also avoids the other extreme end of the spectrum and warns Luke not to be blinded by love for his friends and that if he rushes off to save them he may sacrifice all for which they have fought and suffered (by getting himself or them - specifically Leia, killed.) I just have to say I love how Yoda is characterized throughout the saga. I have no complaints with how Yoda has been handled, except could we please get somebody at ILM to working on a digital TPM Yoda? But, in conclusion for now, I hope that answers your valid question Harbourboy, and helps you see why the ultimate theme in SW is the power of love.

 

Saw it yesterday Great movie. Absolutely loved it.
Lucas did a great job with this movie. Thank god he refrained from more irritating charecters like Jar-Jar Binks

I have to say that Hayden almost screwed atleast one scene (sorry Jesper898 )
Anakin's fall to the dark side was really done badly. He helps kill Mace and then just hops over to Palp's side. It should have been given more time, with Palps having to convince/force Anakin to realise that his way was now as a Sith. If the whole 'peace for the republic' and 'Jedi must die' dialogue had come before Anakin becomes Darth Vader, it would have been better/more believeable imo. Its been a build up from TPM but where is that push over the edge?
The burning in Anakins eyes once he resorts to the dark side of the force was great tho. It really shows how he is suffering for betraying all that he thought was his life until then.

About the buzz droids: maybe they couldn't get a stable anchor on the windows and so restricted themselves to the main body of the ship.

The 'order 66' part really did blow me away. I knew that the clone army had something to do with the destruction of the Jedi but seeing the actual betrayal chilled my bones. Awesome!
And Dooku's surprise at being betrayed by his own master.

I dont think Yoda's powers in RotS are more than in the original trilogy. In the fight with Palps, he only just manages to stop one of the many seats being thrown at him and send it back at Palps. Palps on the other hand is tapping into the dark side and throws things at will. And in ESB Yoda is trying to retrive an X-wing, with gear and all, out of a bog slime. Surely he had to use a lot more concentration for that.

Loved the part where Anakins fall shifts the balance of the force by such a large extent that Yoda becomes dizzy.

But where did that Jedi kid come from to save he senator? The temple had practically been cleared hadn't it? Or did he come from outside?

And the Sith Lords. TPM had Darth Maul. AotC had Count Dooku. RotS had Darth Vader. Palpatine is going through a lot of apprentices isn't he. Why doesn't Count Dooku have a 'Darth -name-'? Even Palps is Darth Sidius.

 

Big B – you have me convinced.

Next questions, because you’re such a legend at answering them:

1) What exactly has Qui-Gon been teaching Obi Wan for the last 20 years?
2) Does R2D2 remember everything that has happened (unlike poor C3PO), so does he know his way around Tatooine and remember who Obi Wan is?
3) Did Princess Leia know where to find Obi-Wan, or did she just hope that R2D2 could find him?
4) How come Obi Wan shows no recognition of R2D2 when he meets him again?
5) How much does Uncle Owen know about Luke’s father? (“He has too much of his father in him” “That’s what I’m afraid of”)
6) What Academy is Luke trying to get into? Is it Imperial or Rebellion based? If Imperial, how did Biggs end up with the Rebellion?
7) If closing you eyes helps Luke shoot more accurately, how come Obi Wan and Anakin never close their eyes when in fighter battles?
8) What exactly is the Emperor’s objective?
9) Who was Master CypherDiaz who originally requisitioned the clone army? Was it Palpatine in disguise? What a long term strategy that was.
10) At what point do the cloned Temuera Morrisons become real human uncloned stormtroopers?
11) How come it takes them 20 years to build the first Death Star, but they manage to knock up the second one in a few months?
12) How come Obi Wan leaves Anakin in agony on the lava instead of killing him or healing him?
13) How does Leia end up being a Princess? Bail Organa was never a King, was he?
14) How come Leia, in RotJ, almost remembers her mother? Pretty good given she only knew her for a few seconds.

EDIT: Wasn't Dooku called Darth Tyrannus?

 

7) Luke was just scared out of his wits.

10) Remember that the clones have an accelerated metabolism. In the 20 years between RotS and ANH they were probably old men and had to be replaced by normal humans.

11) How many years does it take for Honda to create a new model. Yet how many cars does it churn out every year.
Prototypes take time. Technology has to be made to suit specific purposes. Once they had a working Death Star the second could be churned out as fast aas new parts were made.

12) Obi Wan repeatedly says that Anakin is like his brother. He does not want to fight him and begs Yoda not to send him there. Even when they meet at Mustafar, Obi Wan tries to make Anakin realise the error of his ways.
He simply cant kill Anakin. He defeats Anakin in a fight because that is what he must do. But he doesn't want to kill him. His "You were the Chosen One!" dialogue expresses his anguish that Anakin has been replaced by Darth Vader. When he sees Anakin burning he can no longer bear it and quickly turns away.

13) Organa was a senetor and probably co-ordinated the rebels. Since they were fighting the 'Emperor', guess the rebels needed to fight under a 'King'. Which makes his daughter a 'Princess'.

 

Yes, Dooku was Darth Tyrannus. Cypher Dias may have been Dooku for all we know since most Jedi consider those Jedi to turn to the Dark Side to be dead...As for the rest, I'll take a stab at them:

1) What exactly has Qui-Gon been teaching Obi Wan for the last 20 years? How to return from the Netherworld after death.

2) Does R2D2 remember everything that has happened (unlike poor C3PO), so does he know his way around Tatooine and remember who Obi Wan is? Yes and no. He remembers Tatooine, but didn't know the region near Mos Eisley where Luke was raised - Artoo didn't come with Anakin in his search for his mother. I think Artoo remembers Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan pretends not to remember him.

3) Did Princess Leia know where to find Obi-Wan, or did she just hope that R2D2 could find him? Perhaps Artoo or Bail Organa told her that Obi-Wan was on Tatooine.

4) How come Obi Wan shows no recognition of R2D2 when he meets him again? So his thoughts don't betray Luke to Vader. Vader was above Tatooine after the battle with the Tantive V.

5) How much does Uncle Owen know about Luke’s father? (“He has too much of his father in him” “That’s what I’m afraid of”) He knows he wiped out an entire Tusken Raider village after his mother died. Obi-Wan may have told him more when he delivered Luke - we just don't see it.

6) What Academy is Luke trying to get into? Is it Imperial or Rebellion based? If Imperial, how did Biggs end up with the Rebellion? Imperial. Biggs meets a member of the Rebellion on a freighter and defects. Remember Luke didn't care about either side when we first see him, he just wants "off this rock!
"
7) If closing your eyes helps Luke shoot more accurately, how come Obi Wan and Anakin never close their eyes when in fighter battles? Strionger and better trained in the Force, they are.

8) What exactly is the Emperor’s objective? Power. Rule the Galaxy!

9) Who was Master CypherDiaz who originally requisitioned the clone army? Was it Palpatine in disguise? What a long term strategy that was. To divide and conquer the Republic either by Rebellion or by Dictatorship - Palpatine was on BOTH sides in the CLone Wars, so he couldn't lose! I think it was Dooku - see explanation above.

10) At what point do the cloned Temuera Morrisons become real human uncloned stormtroopers? Five years after RotS...Just kidding, I have no idea!!

11) How come it takes them 20 years to build the first Death Star, but they manage to knock up the second one in a few months? Prototypes always take longer to build. The second one was only half as large due to it's "cut away" shape. It also took about 5 years to build, btw.

12) How come Obi Wan leaves Anakin in agony on the lava instead of killing him or healing him? He said he couldn't kill him, but Anakin's betrayal crushed him...He just lets Anakin's destiny dictate what becomes of him.

13) How does Leia end up being a Princess? Bail Organa was never a King, was he? Leia descends from the Queen of Naboo.

14) How come Leia, in RotJ, almost remembers her mother? Pretty good given she only knew her for a few seconds. Maybe she remembers her foster mother...We may never know.

Well, that was my explanation, I have no real knowledge, just my own hypotheses...What do you think?

 

The finished Death Star 1 was 140 kilometres in diametres, while the Death Star 2 was 180 kilometres, would it ever have been finished. Also, it took four years.

 

Actually, I thought it worked as it was done. Anakin commited murder, and not just any murder--he murdered a member of the council. You don't think that might change him a bit?

 

Excellent stuff. May the Force be with you all.

Next question: How come Vader doesn't sense that Leia is his daughter when he comes face to face with her? He seems to sense Luke easily enough.

 

Luke having the same last name probably helps...

 

Yeah, that was another oversight on Yoda and Kenobi's part. At least, sneaky Obi-wan went undercover and changed his first name.

But how did Vader ever learn Luke's name in the first place?

 

Imperial agents learned Luke's name sometime between ANH and ESB.

 

I’ll pick up where I left off. Harbourboy, you said you were surprised at how the Jedi were wiped out. But Jhonka is on the right path. You can reasonably believe there are more Jedi out there in the galaxy. Most of who you saw exterminated during Order 66 were high ranking Jedi on key worlds of the Clone Wars. And then everyone who was at the Temple was killed as well. But there are more Jedi out and about it the galaxy, and ROTS proves it by having the Emperor and Vader send out a coded signal that orders all remaining Jedi in the galaxy to return to the Jedi Temple. Yoda and Obi-Wan get the message, and through a combination of their own experiences, Yoda’s gut, and Bail Organa’s eyewitness testimony, they know they have to go to Coruscant to dismantle the false signal. There’s no reason to believe they didn’t dismantle it in time and several Jedi around the galaxy were able to avoid the trap and go into hiding as well. I think even Obi-Wan makes a comment about nobody being able to figure out that the signal was even dismantled for some time. So, you can rest assured, there are more Jedi out there in the galaxy. You can also be rest assured that many a novel, comic book, and video game will see to it that you get to experience Vader’s happy Jedi hunting.


Switching gears here. Victor Eremita, to clarify on my comment on did Obi-Wan defeat Anakin, or did Anakin defeat himself, what I was getting at is it seemed to me that they were at a standstill and were talking some more. I’m not saying Obi-Wan was having second thoughts about killing Anakin, but he did not want Anakin to keep fighting at the moment. I think it was like a “can we just stop and try to think about this for a minute”, kind of thing. And Obi-Wan was reading Anakin’s obvious thoughts about wanting to continue fighting and kill Obi-Wan. As a result, Obi-Wan tells him to not do it, that he has the higher ground. And I think metaphorically, you are correct Victor, Obi-Wan has the higher ground both literally and figuratively. But what I was suggesting is that by ignoring Obi-Wan’s warning, and letting anger get the best of him, Anakin made an arrogant and fool-hardy force jump/lunge at Obi-Wan that cost him the overwhelming majority of his physical body and well-being. I think Obi-Wan fairly warned Anakin and fairly defended himself. What shocks me, as others of you have said, is that Obi-Wan just sits there and lets Anakin slide down that slope and burn alive. And that’s where I don’t agree with Obi-Wan. He should of either killed Anakin with a saber throw to end his suffering or he should have lifted Anakin to safety and taken him prisoner (although given the circumstances that wouldn’t be the most functional of decisions either) but just sitting there watching him slide…whew that was cold. At this point it time I do believe Obi-Wan meant to kill Anakin, even though he clearly struggled over the decision to do so. In his mind, Anakin Skywalker died that day. And even I have to re-evaluate my stance on Obi-Wan and Yoda’s view of Anakin vs. Vader in the originals and if they wanted Luke to kill him or redeem him. I’ll save that part for another time, but what I do want to say now is I think that scene is really interesting because a) if Anakin had not made the foolish, prideful lunge at Obi-Wan, the battle may very well have turned out differently and so would Darth Vader physically and b) if Obi-Wan had just gone ahead and killed Vader or kept him as a prisoner there would be none of Palps coming to rescue him and putting him in the suit. Two tragic outcomes as a result of two characters’ decisions. I think it would be interesting to see/read a scene where Obi-Wan in his hiding on Tatooine learns that Darth Vader is alive and in the suit. I can just imagine him picking up the rumors in Mos Eisley and the incredible emotions he would feel as a result.


Moving on, to the Grevious, Obi-Wan, the wheelbike, and the boga. I still believe it’s one of the most meaningless action scenes in the SW saga. Yes, Obi-Wan needs a moment to be heroic, but not that way. I have serious issues with the character of Grevious and the use of Utapau in ROTS. If there’s one thing that gives me reservations about ROTS it’s those aspects right there. I will get into this more later. The only reason I’m saving this one is because I have a lot to say.


On to my comment about TPM being too kiddie and all those who said so need to eat crow. I understand what you are saying Victor. My mistake, sometimes more gets said in my head then what actually gets typed. Let me complete the thought to clarify myself. I was referring to TPM and to all those who said Lucas is not capable of creating anything as intense as what we got in ROTS. That he had lost his touch. Lucas clearly shows a touch we’ve never seen and goes far beyond what we could expect in ROTS, IMO. That’s what Lucas proved he could do and that’s what I was referring to about eating crow.


About love scenes seeming forced. It’s a different kind of love. Given his actions, dialogue, and character traits, I’d say 80% of Anakin’s love for Padme is superficial and rushed. Only 20% is remotely like a mature love, and it’s more that she was there to comfort him at a time in his life when he was going through a big transition and leaving his mother, and the fact that Anakin knows that her love for him is based heavily on compassion mixed with a bit of pity for Anakin. Which is one reason he is pissed when she refuses his offer to rule the galaxy with him, even after he sacrificed so much for her. Add Obi-Wan standing on the ramp of her starcruiser to the mix and you get the first force choke of the saga. But what I’m saying is the romance is never trying to be a model romance. It’s more of a “hey look this is wrong, don’t get involved in something like this” romance than a “oh isn’t that sweet?” romance. Sure we’d like to see a witty relationship, but we already have in SW, it’s time for something different.


Well, ok that catches me up to where I was going to make my second reply. Lol. I could write a novel on SW.

 

I don’t think that leaving Anakin in the lava had two tragic outcomes. If Obi-Wan had killed Anakin, then there would be no Darth Vader. Without Darth Vader, it is conceivable that the Emperor would never have been overthrown. Without Darth Vader, the Emperor may well have turned Luke (or someone else) to the Dark Side to be his apprentice. Remember that the ancient prophecy of the Chosen One (wherever that came from) actually did come true (depending on what “bringing balance to the Force” actually means).

So, in other words, not killing Anakin, and therefore allowing the (second) rise of Darth Vader, actually helped set in motion the chain of events that resulted in the end of the Emperor. I think Big B has mentioned previously that, ultimately, the one thing that defeated the Emperor was the one thing he did not really understand properly: Love. The love between Luke and his father.

Phew, I think I'm getting the hang of this Star Wars analysis thing!

 

Just saw it. Opinions:

The good:

- Scenes involving Palpatine and Anakin. Easily the best bit - these seem to have been written by a different scriptwriter from the rest of the film. Immensely helped by Ian McDiarmid - he handles both the subtlety and the snarling with amazing skill and easily walks off with the film.
- Natalie Portman. Bless her, she REALLY tries hard in this one, and almost sounds believable at times.
- The plot. Now that Palpatine's plan finally comes into action, it goes a long way to redeeming all that endless talking about separatists, clones and the trade federation. Who knew that even the death of Viceroy Gunray could have some emotional impact?
- JarJar doesn't speak
- The carnage at the Jedi Temple and order 66. Really hits home.
- The lightsabre duels
- The change in perspective. It really throws a different light on many scenes in the original trilogy.
- CGI has improved leaps and bounds.
- Aside from the scenes with Padme, Christensen has improved dramatically and is now actually veering towards good.
- Geekfest cameos. Made me smile to see Chewbacca, Mon Mothma and Tarkin

and... this will sound strange

- Jimmy Smits?? His character is the only one who doesn't have the same damn solemnity as the rest of 'em - and seems to exist on a vaguely human plane of existence. He's a far cry from Han Solo, but the closest this film has to offer...


The bad:

- The direlogue. With the exception of a few scenes (all of Palpatine) the dialogue seems to have hit a new low... 'You're breaking my heart', ' I want more, and I know I shouldn't', 'Are you all right?', 'He's under a lot of stress'??
- The romantic scenes. These two have zero chemistry - and they're not helped by the script. I don't care what the apologists say (hi BigB) no romance in the universe was ever this wooden. Even if I do concede the point that mature love this ain't - surely some passion is involved? I mean, they appear to have managed to have sex, so why treat each other in this odd, overformal way, like strangers?
- The ludicrous attempts to insert a 'subtle' political subtext. It's laudable that Lucas made the attempt, but I think the point could have been made without the sledgehammer hints.
- Samuel L Jackson. He was always out of place here, and even though the lightsabre duel is awesome, for the rest he gets the most laughable lines, which he then delivers accordingly.


and my biggest gripe:

- Vader rises. If I had to put my money on one scene that could not be messed up it would be this. But Lucas manages it spectacularly. It starts excellently and poignantly - the mask slowly descending and the first raspy breath taken. And then we hear the deep familiar voice of James Earl Jones utter the immortal line - 'Where's Padme'?!?!? WTF?! followed by the hands-down dumbest line in any star wars film: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (just saw that this is being referred by fans as 'the Calculon moment' - how apt)


The confusing:

- Yoda: Into exile I must go. Why??
- The twins need to be split up. Again why? And why give Luke to Uncle Owen?
- How long was she pregnant? Like 5 days or something?

 

Wait, Mon Mothma and Tarkin were in the film? Where?

I guess I wasn't paying enough attention

 

Mon Mothma was cut, so she was filmed, but not added.

Grand Moff Tarkin, Governor Tarkin at the time, was in one of the final scenes. When Vader and Sidious is looking at the beginning of the construction of the Death Star, he is the officer that stands beside them and then walks off.

 

I thought that Mothma was the woman at Padme's funeral?

I don't know where they dug up the guy who played Tarkin, but he looks freakishly like Peter Cushing. In a way, he and Christopher Lee were in a film together one last time. Nice

 

Is it just me or has Yoda lost the charm and wit that Frank Oz brought to my favorite character? His dialogue seems like really bad fan-impression of Yoda-speak, and I cringe at the precise backwards formula. I think I just miss the mystical yogi that Yoda seemed in the first three films.