Should 'foreigners' have to integrate?

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At the same time Dengo there are German (and other nationalities) villages in Turkey where they more or less are creating Germany in their little part of Turkey. They are there for the cheap property and sun, not the amazing culture or history.

 

Well, in America this has been going on since - America existed basically. To this day there are areas of many major metropolitan centers that are named based on the type of people that live there. For example, in New York City, there is a section called China Town and Little Italy. There's also a Little Italy section in Baltimore. It should be noted that these areas serve a very practical purpose. If you are immigrating to the U.S. and don't speak English, it may really help you to get on your feet if you live in an area that speaks your home language. Of course, having said that, I think SOME effort should be made to integrate into U.S. society, and living in such an area may be an impediment to meeting that goal.

I also have some perspective on this being a 2nd generation American. My wife is also a 2nd generation American. From what I have seen from my own family and hers, it appears to me that immigrants very rarely will integrate fully, unless they come here at a very young age. In the case of my grandparents, while they weren't born in the U.S. they came here as children, went to school here, learned the English language and integrated very well. However, I'm told that my grandparents' parents (so my great grandparents) never integrated. They all died before I was born, so I never knew any of them. However, my father tells me that he never had a single conversation with any of his grandparents. The reason for this is that none of them ever learned how to speak English, and he never learned how to speak Italian or Slovak (his granparents' country of origin was either Italy or Czekoslovakia). My wife has similar stories on her side of the family.

Because of this, I feel that attempting to force any type of integration on immigrants beyond the application of the nation's laws is a futile effort - a fool's errand if you will. I don't think we should make special accomodations for them, but at the same time, if they obey the laws then I don't think anything more will need to be done. History has shown us that their children become Americanized soon enough anyway.

There is only one case where I will make an exception, and that is in education. In order to make it in America, it really, really helps to speak English. Therefore, I think it should be required that the children of immigrants attend English-speaking schools. There are some areas of the U.S., predominantly in the south and southwest, where the concentration of Spanish speaking people (and this includes both legal and illegal ones) is so high where they are offering Spanish speaking public schools. I completely disagree with this. If you want your kid to go to a Spanish speaking school, that should have to be privately funded. I see no reason why taxpayers money should go to a cause that clearly works against the integration of children into American society.

 

@Faraaz:

It used to be as simple as having the right or not having it. But nowadays things have become more complex than that and we sometimes wonder if one has the right to make use of another right. So yeah, they have the right to control them also. But they should treat all women equally without singling out or randomly selecting interesting subjects etc. The idea is that they should have a good reason to control a person at all unless they are controlling everyone.

Agreed unless there's a legitimate ground. E.g. a Catholic charity has every right to distribute medicines but not contraceptives. Muslim restaurants have every right not to serve alcohol. Jews have every right to demand other food than pork (or Catholics meat on Friday). And so on and so forth. But demanding to be put in a dominant position or freed of any public burden is dishonest and shouldn't be tolerated.

@Dengo:

Yes. No one has any right to do that. Especially not immigrants.

@Cúchulainn:

Snobby immigrants should be treated the same as dirt poor immigrants, I guess. For example, for some people, Poland will be the better world - free good education, more opportunity than they have where they lived before. For some others, there will be lower prices than elsewhere in the EU, or better opportunities just because of sharing nationality with a corporate boss who prefers to man posts with compatriots.

@Aldeth: Yeah, the US is different. I think it's a good thing, actually. But they should make more effort to speak English. I don't say there should be no room for those who can't really blend in, especially if they already have people from similar backgrounds who will help them, but all in all, some extent of conforming should be there. So long as they realise they are guests, it's fine.

 

Yes and that's one of the reasons for rising of nationalism here too. BTW I said I understand why racism is rising in Germany but of course I don't agree them.

I remembered something now, there is a village in Kars(a city in northeast Turkey), founders of village were Germans. They came after 1877-1878 Ottoman-Russia war. Most of them has gone to Germany for economical problems of our country. Only one family is left. They look like our villagers. They wear same cloths even though they're Christians. That's an extreme example of integration. Younger boy of family says they read both Bible and Quran in funerals.

Turks in Germany should learn a few things from these people. I don't mean Turks should read Bible there but at least they can try to look more modern. My mother went there 2 or 3 years ago and she says there are more women wearing turban or burkha in Germany than Turkey.

 

I believe immigrants should do all that they can to reconsile their new nationality with their native ethnicity. No one should integrate fully - as the great societies have shown that diverse cultures are by far more beneficial than the xenophobic. But to respect their new country and countrymen, immigrants should (at a minimum) become fluent in the dominant language, involve themselves in local politics and social settings, contribute to the local economy by paying taxes and working, and not shut themselves off from their neighbors.

This also goes both ways, of course - the locals need to be as welcoming as possible. The greater the cultural divide, the more difficult the welcome. But the wheels are greased here when the immigrants make the first move. They are the strangers, after all - so it isn't their place to impose their own standards and customs on the status quo. As an immigrant, they've (by definition) made a decision to join another culture - they should make an active effort to integrate and learn about their new home.

So to answer your question, Barmy: I say yes, it is their duty as immigrants to integrate. It is counterproductive, unrealistic, and (IMO) extremely selfish for immigrants to refuse to do so. I do draw a definite distinction between integration and assimilation.

 

I think integration is necessary to the extent that the immigrant can function as a part of the native society. So, at least knowing enough of the language to communicate easily, and at least a basic knowledge of the country's norms and values, as well as history.

 

It sounds like most of us are in agreement in this thread (what a civilised discussion).

Foreigners can bring such variety and new life to a country. If every foreigner who came to live in New Zealand integrated completely and just went to work at McDonalds, then there wouldn't be the fantastic Asian restaurants and Food Alleys that I go to for my lunch every day. We wouldn't have the great Chinese New Year parades or the colourful Diwahli festivals. We wouldn't have St Patrick's Day drinks. We wouldn't have the Dutch shop I go to for my cheese and sausages.

I think we all agree that compliance with laws and some effort at speaking the local language are good, but not at the expense of losing the diversity of culture in the world. Actually, the people who work in the Asian Food Alley I go to don't seem to be able to speak much English, but that doesn't really get in the way of me giving them money and them making me a delicious Tonkotsu-Ramen.

 

@Dengo:

Agreed...the extremely volatile nature of the Islamic masses is one of the major reasons they have such a bad reputation with other societies.

@Chev:

I can talk about this a bit, because of the huge increase in the number of foreigners coming into India at the moment.

For instance, whenever I'm going back to India for my holidays from Sydney, there's tons of Caucasians on the flights from Singapore to India...and its always a sight to see them when they go out into India for the first time. Especially when they get ripped off at customs... >_<

At general to all you guys if you plan on coming to India in the near future...if you are white, you WILL get ripped off because there's so many dodgy characters around on the streets here, and I think this is a weird take on racism. For instance, if you take a taxi in Bangalore, if the normal fare is 50 rupees, you're going to get charged 300 rupees because you are an obvious foreigner.

In this vein, a VERY funny, yet sad incident:

I was with my girlfriend at this coffee shop when an elderly British couple came up to us and asked us for some directions. When we told them where they needed to go, the gentleman pulls out a 100 rupee note. I told him he didn't need to PAY me just for giving him directions!! Only..he said he had to pay the last guy he asked...

So yeah...that's just as bad as racial discrimination against colored people in Western countries and things like that...

 

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned how multi-nationals push their country of origins culture on to people, instead of respecting local culture.

Pizza Hut - when they first came to N.Ireland they did not realize that we eat Pizza with knife and fork, not our hands. ugghhhhhhh. Ireland like many countries has their own type of pizza, but you will not find Sodabread Pizza in any Irish branch of Pizza hut.

Walmart - Opened up ASDA and tried to flog nasty processed American cheeses and similar itmes instead of stocking local foods. They soon changed their tune but only stock a few Irish cheeses, breads etc. Its no wonder that Tesco and Marks and Spencer are more popular.

Many US businesses do not respect local worker rights, eg Burger King in Lisburn was paying students £2 per hour in the early 90's. There are currently no BK's in Lisburn (population of almost 200000).

B&Q's store in a Nationalist area had the strange idea of making their staff wear new uniforms with Union Jacks! It would have worked in a Unionist area though...

 

The fascination. Are we talking racism among Germans - or among Turks in Germany?

 

@Dendri :

In the first post I tried to tell I understand why Germans (especially neo-nazis) are angry at Turks in Germany.

The second post is about Turks here getting angry for they think their lands are being "invaded by Germans (and English as I heard on TV)"... Also I said :

to tell i don't agree with nazis, their ideas, their ways(They attack Turks sometimes). I didn't want to be seen like a nazi-lover.... I just understand why they're angry at Turks.

I hope that was more clear.

 

Dengo, dunno whether or not you've got it figured out in your time here but I am German, and I found your statements pretty off.
You claimed racism is on the rise here. Do you understand on which side? The Neonazis, yes. A problem that is recognized. What about the Turkish people who live here? Young Turkish males in particular. There is an alarming nationalist tendency among them; it brings with it violence and racist slurs against us. Organized as Milli Görüsch and Grauen Wölfe (Grey Wolves). Groups deemed so dangerous that our secret service (BND) is charged with observing them.

So please.

 

Thanks for the advice, Faraaz. That's the sort of inside local knowledge that makes hanging around SP useful. Not that I plan to go to India any time soon, but I still think that's the sort of stuff I'd love to know.

 

@Dendri : Did I say the only problem was neo-nazis? I was just writing about neo-nazis. I never said there is no nationalism (or racism) in Turks. My aunt (and lots of people I know) lives there and I know what's happening there.

Actually I don't think Turkish nationalism is on the rise. Because it was always high. Most of my friends are and were nationalists because nearly everyone is nationalist. Damn, it is our official ideology. Fascist grey wolves were supported by government and killed people as they want here.

BTW Milli Görüsch is (despite its name-National Idea) not a very nationalist group but exteremely Islamic which could be more dangerous.

I know these groups are very strong there, actually stronger than here. So please don't try to tell me that I'm an arrogant and looking from one side. You don't say it but you mean it.

 

Of course... It just needed some tweaking. Glad to be of service.

In any event, they preach hatred and contempt. Whether the reason for it is nationalism or religious in nature will have people occupied only for so long.

Bah! That's not at all what I think. Study incomplete.

 

Bah. Our people does better than that. In Turkey if taxi driver understands that you're from a different city (not country) he will try to rip you off too.

What Faraaz said about India is also true for Turkey too. If you come here be careful.

@Dendri : Thank you for making me laugh today. A German told me how dangerous Milli Görüsch and Grey Wolves are today. I didn't have so much fun lately.

BTW stay away from Greywolves, they may bite you.

 

Heh. Will stay clear of them. I heard the guys wear thongs, and they are way too tight.

 

Dendri, it's the Verfassungsschutz, not the BND.


The Grey Wolves had always followers under turkish immigrants in Germany. I don't think their number is rising.
Religious fanatics, now, are another issue. Or rather 'fundamentalists'.

But it is important to know why more and more muslim immigrants go back to their religious 'roots'. The phenomenon is a symptome of the lack of integration, and not the cause.

 

Here, we have a problem with French businesses negotiating huge tax breaks and getting them, not respecting the rights of our workers and screwing our economy big time. Same with Americans. They come here, buy banks out and turn workers into drones with their stupid integration idea. That means demoting everyone to simple grunt and pretending to be generous for stealing people's weekends with their integration trips where they integrate people e.g. by having them roar unison at the director's sign. Not to mention using English as the language of operation.

 

I was thrown out of a Filipino cafe once for being local! This happened in Belfast of all places.

That type of foreigner I can do without - racist foreigners, not Filipinos in general.